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Actually, there was plenty of industrial base left. Even Japan and Germany maintained a respectable industrial capacity. What changed was the growth in Asia, and the result hit every 1st world industrial power just about the same. It just seemed to hit America harder, because along with that Asian industrial growth spree, we also saw a huge migration of illegal migrant laborers. Not only were American manufacturers competing with Asia, but American workers working for these businesses were competing against ultra cheap migrant laborers. It was the end of $30/hr honest Joe who made a living pressing the level on the hydraulic press. Later on, that press was eventually replaced with a much more efficient progressive press that no longer required a human hand to press the lever.
America still has an intact industrial base that produces the same as it did 30 years ago. It just doesn't require many American workers. Of course, any work requiring unskilled labor will simply go to the supplier hiring the most illegal immigrants, or the one in Asia.
At the rate things are going, a lot of us will be getting up and searching for new jobs. The future will be in short supply of them. As competition gets more fierce, employers will have a huge amount of leverage on their skeleton crew working workforce. Even though technology will make "work" easier, it won't make the job itself less demanding. More workers will be expected to devote more energy towards accomplishing more tasks during the work day. The individual tasks will be made easier, but this will only mean more energy to go around. For less money of course. And the cycle will continue. Doesn't sound like a particularly pleasant rat race to me.
Eventually, the libs may get their way and we will slip into communism by de facto. I mean, when the majority qualifies for food stamps, medicaid, section 8 what else can you call it??? The workforce may eventually require few workers, but the structurally unemployed still have to eat something, sleep somewhere, and receive medical care somewhere, and someone will have to pay for those expenses...
I recognize this, but the unfortunate facts are that once most of us get a full stomach and a roof over our heads, the next of our wants usually involve the control of somebody else's time and attention: also, that when technology makes it easier to do a specific task, the markets simply redistribute the task over a smaller number of employees, and find some other, usually odious new task for those displaced. Prosperity trickles down, but in the form of superficial technological gimmicks rather than a shorter work day for the low-demand introvert who isn't impressed by the new high-tech playthings.
For the most part, I can live with that, but there are plenty of people out there who buy into the scenario that all the wealth created is hidden in a vault somewhere and it's their mission to redistribute it, while breaking a few heads along the way.
What we have now is far from perfect (though better than any of the alternatives), and the class-warriors and saber-rattlers can't seem to get it into their pointed heads that as long as honest money remains a safe store of value, it will eventually wind up in a pension fund, university or hospital endowment, or some other mechanism by which we all benefit -- precisely what these loudmouths and hatemongers claim to want in the first place.
What money really represents is the ability to say NO! to the abuse of power -- because as Acton said, and has been repeated ad infinitum, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Actually, there was plenty of industrial base left. Even Japan and Germany maintained a respectable industrial capacity. What changed was the growth in Asia, and the result hit every 1st world industrial power just about the same. It just seemed to hit America harder, because along with that Asian industrial growth spree, we also saw a huge migration of illegal migrant laborers. Not only were American manufacturers competing with Asia, but American workers working for these businesses were competing against ultra cheap migrant laborers. It was the end of $30/hr honest Joe who made a living pressing the level on the hydraulic press. Later on, that press was eventually replaced with a much more efficient progressive press that no longer required a human hand to press the lever.
America still has an intact industrial base that produces the same as it did 30 years ago. It just doesn't require many American workers. Of course, any work requiring unskilled labor will simply go to the supplier hiring the most illegal immigrants, or the one in Asia.
At the rate things are going, a lot of us will be getting up and searching for new jobs. The future will be in short supply of them. As competition gets more fierce, employers will have a huge amount of leverage on their skeleton crew working workforce. Even though technology will make "work" easier, it won't make the job itself less demanding. More workers will be expected to devote more energy towards accomplishing more tasks during the work day. The individual tasks will be made easier, but this will only mean more energy to go around. For less money of course. And the cycle will continue. Doesn't sound like a particularly pleasant rat race to me.
Eventually, the libs may get their way and we will slip into communism by de facto. I mean, when the majority qualifies for food stamps, medicaid, section 8 what else can you call it??? The workforce may eventually require few workers, but the structurally unemployed still have to eat something, sleep somewhere, and receive medical care somewhere, and someone will have to pay for those expenses...
That's true. Many countries like you cited are succeeding and even thriving in this New Economy. Taking this topic to a liberal or conservative level is ad hom, except for the respect that both Republicans and Democrats were in charge of selling us out.
I recognize this, but the unfortunate facts are that once most of us get a full stomach and a roof over our heads, the next of our wants usually involve the control of somebody else's time and attention: also, that when technology makes it easier to do a specific task, the markets simply redistribute the task over a smaller number of employees, and find some other, usually odious new task for those displaced. Prosperity trickles down, but in the form of superficial technological gimmicks rather than a shorter work day for the low-demand introvert who isn't impressed by the new high-tech playthings.
For the most part, I can live with that, but there are plenty of people out there who buy into the scenario that all the wealth created is hidden in a vault somewhere and it's their mission to redistribute it, while breaking a few heads along the way.
What we have now is far from perfect (though better than any of the alternatives), and the class-warriors and saber-rattlers can't seem to get it into their pointed heads that as long as honest money remains a safe store of value, it will eventually wind up in a pension fund, university or hospital endowment, or some other mechanism by which we all benefit -- precisely what these loudmouths and hatemongers claim to want in the first place.
What money really represents is the ability to say NO! to the abuse of power -- because as Acton said, and has been repeated ad infinitum, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Industry leaders had an unofficial "Social Contract" where they made plenty of money - tons of it - yet built the middle class opportunity to keep people buying, therefore securing their business because people could buy their goods. How that disappeared is what I'm reading about - why they think they need 2 billion where 1 billion isn't "enough."
So you read a book he wrote 25 years ago and it's a "re-hash?" No seismic world-changing event have happened since 1988? You haven't read it so don't tell me or anyone else what is in it. And F*** YOU for assuming I'm some spoiled kid looking to place blame. In fact, F*** YOU with a post-hole digger! It's goddamned people like you who want to stick your head in a playbook and act like you got all the answers. Yea, where's that playbook gotten you so far?
Industry leaders had an unofficial "Social Contract" where they made plenty of money - tons of it - yet built the middle class opportunity to keep people buying, therefore securing their business because people could buy their goods.
This was pretty much how things operated from the late 1940s into the 1970s...
This was pretty much how things operated from the late 1940s into the 1970s...
Right, which represented the classic American Middle Class that our parents and grandparents enjoyed. Reality is not everyone is cut out for college and becoming rocket science experts. Your average Archie Bunker just wants a house and a job to meet the bills and that was very attainable then if you were willing to work as most people are. You have to have incentive to work and the statistics show that despite all the "deadbeats" we hear about, most people WANT to work regardless of education and ability. Now that they're trying to eliminate the middle class, I don't see that as a good thing for America maintaining its super power status and damn, other countries have managed to navigate these rough financial times, but we didn't? Something's amiss, far beyond the power of the Average Joe. Those fashionable to bash politicians are not the whole story either.
I don't have to read it to know it is full of crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
It's criminal and treason what these people have done.
And what about your role in all of this?
Read this....
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Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
You spoiled children can bawl as much as you like. The point remains that an industrialized society with "protected" high wages can't compete in a global economy.
....and this....
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
If you think the American Dream is handing your wealth over to the "rich" hand-over-fist while you crawl all over your competition to hand over your money hand-over-fist then you might have a point. Otherwise you simply sound like the people who think the answer to all problems is positive reinforcement for negative actions.
If you folks think you can legislate equality you're in for a rude awakening. Equality comes free, by the free market and with absolutely no remorse, pity or empathy. The problems you have are that you don't really want universal equality, you want to special among all equals. You want to be more equal than others.
...and you might actually learn something.
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Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
No seismic world-changing event have happened since 1988?
In the grand scheme of things? No. It's been pretty routine, economically speaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad3
The issue in question is the American dream. Republicans killed the American dream for regular Americans, by doing the following.
1. Being against raising min wage, this makes people unable to afford the American dream.
2. Being against earned income tax credits, this limits the American dream for low income workers.
3. Handing out supply side tax cuts, to finance the building of US factories in China, and moving high paying American jobs to China.
Americas republicans have clearly hindered the American dream for America's workers.
No, it doesn't. Wages/salaries are determined by the Supply & Demand for Skill-Set in a particular Market.
The EITC is nothing but a drain on resources. The poor could actually do better by just exercising common sense.
When you gain enough knowledge to explain why the rest of the world cannot buy American-made goods, then come back and we can have a more intelligent conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
Actually, there was plenty of industrial base left. Even Japan and Germany maintained a respectable industrial capacity.
True, but the difference is that Japan and Germany specialize and concentrate in unique specialty products ---- something the US cannot do because of the poor education system.
If you look at individual States within the US, you'll find some Japans and Germanys.
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Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
I resent that lack of knowledge.
You resemble it as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
This is about the evolution of the global, New Economy and what caused it and where it's headed, which, I'd figure, just might be of some concern to us.
You're 6 years too late.
I'll already explained all of that way, way back in 2007.
There's a massive shift of Capital flowing from the 1st World to the 3rd/4th World. It is not a conspiracy, it is Economics.
You are helpless, powerless and lacking any control to stop this flow of Capital.
This flow of Capital will continue for the next 30-40 years (or possibly longer) until an equilibrium is reached. During this time, Americans are going to have to learn how to do less with less, and then I suspect that if the 2nd World gets their act together, they will supplant the 1st World (which will then be the 2nd World.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
How that disappeared is what I'm reading about ...
You caused it to disappear, by acting stupidly with your money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
Right, which represented the classic American Middle Class that our parents and grandparents enjoyed.
Your parents and grand-parents didn't do stupid things like become massively indebted to go to a college that they would never have been allowed to attend in the first place; because they didn't do stupid things like a buy an home with 0% down; because they didn't do stupid things like put 0% down on a car and financing it for 60 to 72 months, and then get up side down on payments and then trade the car in for another so they could have perpetual car payments; because 41 years ago, only 1 in 2 households in American stupidly threw away their money on a 2nd car; because they lived with in their means and didn't carry massive credit card debt either....
....I could on and on....
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
Reality is not everyone is cut out for college and becoming rocket science experts. Your average Archie Bunker just wants a house and a job to meet the bills and that was very attainable then if you were willing to work as most people are.
The bills? What size house did your parents and grandparents have?
Did they have a TV in every room? Cable? More than one telephone?
Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
Now that they're trying to eliminate the middle class,...
The Stupid Class has ruined its future by acting financially stupid and irresponsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianPetersonRules
I don't see that as a good thing for America maintaining its super power status and damn, other countries have managed to navigate these rough financial times, but we didn't? Something's amiss, far beyond the power of the Average Joe.
Yes, I already explained that, as have several other posters. Nothing is amiss....these are the Laws of Economics working their magic.....you cannot compete globally....that is your fault, you are to blame, so learn how to deal with it. Here's some graphs from NPR to explain what I said would happen 6 years ago....
Americans enjoyed both the world's highest standard of living and the ability to prolong it for about 25 years after the end of World war II simply because the rest of the world didn't have much of an industrial base left. But eventually the rest of the world caught up and we now have to compete.
It really is all about competing.
Over time, technology has likely eliminated more jobs than outsourcing to Asia ever has.
The price of fuel and the impact on imports has created a window of opportunity for the U.S. Manufacturing is increasing in the U.S. Unlike historical manufacturing, the masses of blue collar union workers are being replaced with substantially fewer high skilled and often college-educated techs.
Over time, technology has likely eliminated more jobs than outsourcing to Asia ever has.
The price of fuel and the impact on imports has created a window of opportunity for the U.S. Manufacturing is increasing in the U.S. Unlike historical manufacturing, the masses of blue collar union workers are being replaced with substantially fewer high skilled and often college-educated techs.
That's certainly true. The question remains to me, at least one major question, is how some countries didn't diminish - indeed increased - their middle class during this New Economy yet we're lagging toward the bottom in most indicators.
They removed the controls when they allowed banks to gamble with insured deposits.
Banks have always gambled with depositor's money. If a bank does not lease out depositor's money, the depositor earns no interest and the bank serves no purpose. At the same time, credit would evaporate.
Fractional Reserve Banking, the current form of banking in all countries, is what allows short term deposits to fund long term loans. The concern is no longer that individuals with savings accounts are going to make a run on the banks. Instead, it's all about global institutional investors who can bleed a bank dry in a few days of panic.
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