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Old 04-26-2013, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Miami,FL
2,891 posts, read 3,286,383 times
Reputation: 683

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Just playing devil's advocate here, but which g-d?
well in my view even though i'm a christian and I believe in the god of abraham isaac and jacob. that isn't key for society what is key is that you believe in higher power to whom you will be responsible to when you die.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,017 posts, read 15,720,384 times
Reputation: 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
That Constitution created a government
Nope
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Miami,FL
2,891 posts, read 3,286,383 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonarchist View Post
Doesn't the constitution say that Congress has the power to provide for the entire welfare of every single body?
that general welfare clause has been so abused by our government it's not even funny. general welfare was confined to the 23 tasks that congress was given and no more.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in the Southwest...
336 posts, read 385,329 times
Reputation: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
There are no such things as "god given rights." To the extent that anyone or any group has rights, they were taken, not given. We chose as a nation to take our rights and secure them under the authority of a Constitution. That Constitution created a government tasked to secure and protect those rights and most importantly to manage their conflict. This was done under the certainly correct understanding that without the coercive power of a government such rights soon destroy each other. We are therefore a nation of laws, not of men.

Though uneven and imperfect (as all human endeavors are) our system has worked for almost a quarter of a millennium.
I'll defer to Karl Denninger on this:

Quote:
They refuse to recognize these essential facts:
  • The Government never possessed a single right, therefore it cannot grant them. Instead, we the people granted a limited set of privileges to Government. That's what a Constitutional Republic is.
Why We Can't Have A "Reasonable Discussion" On 2A in [Market-Ticker]

UNANIMOUS Declaration of the Thirteen States wrote:

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the CONSENT of the governed,

Last edited by Biz901; 04-26-2013 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,017 posts, read 15,720,384 times
Reputation: 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamihurricane555 View Post
that general welfare clause has been so abused by our government it's not even funny. general welfare was confined to the 23 tasks that congress was given and no more.
That and interstate commerce.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,647,235 times
Reputation: 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
Almost everything our government "does for us" is by coercion.
Of course. We create governments and empower them specifically for that purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale
They cannot do what they do unless they take from one to give to another.
Not really. Almost nothing regarding rights is a zero sum game. Access to rights are secured generally by the recognition that they are a negotiation, an arbitration if you will. The classic example is that your right to throw your fist ends at the tip of my nose. That may "take from you" a few inches of fist throwing, but those inches are far more valuable to me than they are to you. Taking those inches from you and leaving them to me creates a net gain for the two person community that is you and me.

All laws, all systems of morals, and all accession to rights serve the singular purpose of managing the boundaries between your fist and my nose. If sometimes that means individuals have to sacrifice something, the objective is to make as sure as possible that those sacrifices by any individual create a net gain to the nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale
Where does the government get the authority to coerce me into paying for my neighbors rent?
We, as a community, have decided that this is an acceptable trade off between the inches of some people's punches and other people's noses. The calculus is not merely that of rent dollars. It accounts for broader societal costs of homelessness and incorporates a set of moral values as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale
SS is certainly a coercive action....also not a function of our government.
Again, we, as a community, have decided that this is an acceptable trade off between the inches of some people's punches and other people's noses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale
I could go on and on.......
And the general answer will always be the same.

The good news is that you have been granted a powerful Constitutional remedy for your dissatisfaction with the choices we have made as a community. It is called "the vote." How effectively you avail yourself of that powerful mechanism for participating in the arbitration of all our conflicting rights depends entirely on you.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:32 AM
 
11,780 posts, read 8,587,835 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
There are no such things as "god given rights." To the extent that anyone or any group has rights, they were taken, not given. We chose as a nation to take our rights and secure them under the authority of a Constitution. That Constitution created a government tasked to secure and protect those rights and most importantly to manage their conflict. This was done under the certainly correct understanding that without the coercive power of a government such rights soon destroy each other. We are therefore a nation of laws, not of men.

Though uneven and imperfect (as all human endeavors are) our system has worked for almost a quarter of a millennium.
Not every right is codified into the constitution though. The constitution even sates as much.
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."


The government gets power by consent of the people that are governed.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,647,235 times
Reputation: 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biz901 View Post
I'll defer to Karl Denninger on this:
Well... that's your first mistake right there. I would never defer to anybody regarding my personal opinions on an issue unless I was acknowledging both my personal ignorance and my personal disinterest at the same time. I only let other people decide for me regarding things about which I do not care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biz901
UNANIMOUS Declaration of the Thirteen States wrote:
Think about that for a moment. How can a "state" declare anything?

No... a community of people that supported the declaration prevailed over all the other communities that did not. How they prevailed is beside the point; coercion takes many forms beyond the martial one. But within those states, would you pretend for a second that anything vaguely resembling true unanimity was ever achieved? Of course not. There were debates and arguments and eventually one side won and the others were coerced to go along.

The gift of our system is that we generally settle our arguments without bullets. It is always a bit of a puzzle to me that people pretend they are going to save that system with bullets.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in the Southwest...
336 posts, read 385,329 times
Reputation: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
Almost everything our government "does for us" is by coercion.

They cannot do what they do unless they take from one to give to another.

Where does the government get the authority to coerce me into paying for my neighbors rent?

SS is certainly a coercive action....also not a function of our government.

I could go on and on.......
Uneducated reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Of course. We create governments and empower them specifically for that purpose.
That is an absolute lie.

Let me guess, that's what you learned in the Public Fool System?

This is the historical record:

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Read that slowly, until it starts to sink in...
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:36 AM
 
Location: San Jose
1,857 posts, read 2,092,780 times
Reputation: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
There are no such things as "god given rights." To the extent that anyone or any group has rights, they were taken, not given. We chose as a nation to take our rights and secure them under the authority of a Constitution. That Constitution created a government tasked to secure and protect those rights and most importantly to manage their conflict. This was done under the certainly correct understanding that without the coercive power of a government such rights soon destroy each other. We are therefore a nation of laws, not of men.

Though uneven and imperfect (as all human endeavors are) our system has worked for almost a quarter of a millennium.
This ^^^^^
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