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Old 04-27-2013, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Houston
22,591 posts, read 11,624,503 times
Reputation: 9127

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
Voters cannot vote away your rights.
How come I pay taxes and can't own a bazooka?
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Houston
22,591 posts, read 11,624,503 times
Reputation: 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHurricaneKid View Post
What good are natural rights, if the document that gives you natural rights gives itself the ability to eliminate said rights through democracy?
What good is any right?
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Better half of PA
1,391 posts, read 1,042,805 times
Reputation: 609
Until God himself comes down to govern us all it will be necessary for someone else to do so. While anarchy sounds fun in theory I'm sure in reality it isn't.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:44 AM
 
37,062 posts, read 16,148,820 times
Reputation: 8431
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Just playing devil's advocate here, but which g-d?
The one referred to in, "Endowed by our creator".
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:49 AM
 
37,062 posts, read 16,148,820 times
Reputation: 8431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonarchist View Post
Doesn't the constitution say that Congress has the power to provide for the entire welfare of every single body?
No, it does not. It states, "promote the general Welfare...' BIIIG difference.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,673,940 times
Reputation: 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
They are universal.
No such rights actually exist. They are at best theoretical ideas, and some nations are better at securing them than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale
Our government was formed to protect our natural rights.
Actually, this is what our government was formed to do:

Quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to...

1) form a more perfect Union,
2) establish Justice,
3) insure domestic Tranquility,
4) provide for the common defence,
5) promote the general Welfare,
6) and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity,

...do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale
That's what makes America so special.
That's among the things... yes.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,673,940 times
Reputation: 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
Voters cannot vote away your rights.
On what planet is that?
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Austin
29,554 posts, read 16,514,027 times
Reputation: 8092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonarchist View Post
Doesn't the constitution say that Congress has the power to provide for the entire welfare of every single body?

Yes and my welfare demands a new BMW every year.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
6,480 posts, read 6,207,861 times
Reputation: 6960
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Just playing devil's advocate here, but which g-d?
Y'know...it doesn't really matter: Even an agnostic like me can get behind this idea because it guarantees that no earthly power can take our Rights away.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Houston
22,591 posts, read 11,624,503 times
Reputation: 9127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonarchist View Post
Doesn't the constitution say that Congress has the power to provide for the entire welfare of every single body?
Maybe we should go with The Father of the Constitution's explanation of the meaning of the general welfare clause. From Federalist Paper #41:

Quote:
Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.

Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare."

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter.

The objection here is the more extraordinary, as it appears that the language used by the convention is a copy from the articles of Confederation. The objects of the Union among the States, as described in article third, are "their common defense, security of their liberties, and mutual and general welfare." The terms of article eighth are still more identical: "All charges of war and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury," etc. A similar language again occurs in article ninth. Construe either of these articles by the rules which would justify the construction put on the new Constitution, and they vest in the existing Congress a power to legislate in all cases whatsoever. But what would have been thought of that assembly, if, attaching themselves to these general expressions, and disregarding the specifications which ascertain and limit their import, they had exercised an unlimited power of providing for the common defense and general welfare? I appeal to the objectors themselves, whether they would in that case have employed the same reasoning in justification of Congress as they now make use of against the convention. How difficult it is for error to escape its own condemnation!
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