U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-27-2013, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,649,398 times
Reputation: 3949

Advertisements

For all of you jumping on Nonarchist... he was trolling and does not even believe the comment that has gotten you all upset. I simply put him on ignore because Formosa's law declares that people who are mentally ill have enough trouble without also being continuously attacked on-line.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-27-2013, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Texas State Fair
8,566 posts, read 9,663,886 times
Reputation: 4228
Default The Bill of Rights PROTECTS Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
Thoughts?
Yeah... are you addressing your thread to those who are educated in the intent of the Bill of Rights, or those who use it as a challenge to liberties? Or just think it's a dish rag for right handed persons?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2013, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in the Southwest...
336 posts, read 385,456 times
Reputation: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
The Founders would have been horrified.

PS. I also have to note... it appears that you have never read a word of Locke. Or if you have, you have rejected him wholesale.
Quote:
If you shut up and do as you're told, you have the right not to be killed ~ Hobbes
Actually, as a descendant of three (3) families that are charter members of the Sons of the Revolution, and an educated/informed American in general, I do know what I'm talking about - It seems you're the one supporting the mutated Military/Banking Empire that the USofA has morphed into since 1933...

FWIW: Locke v. Hobbes

Locke versus Hobbes

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2013, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,649,398 times
Reputation: 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biz901 View Post
Actually, as a descendant of three (3) families that are charter members of the Sons of the Revolution, and an educated/informed American in general, I do know what I'm talking about -
There is no evidence of that anywhere in this thread.

As a descendent of peasants, sulfur miners and highwaymen... I am just as proud of my ancestors (and just as unable to claim any credit for anything they did) as you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biz901
It seems you're the one supporting the mutated Military/Banking Empire that the USofA has morphed into since 1933...
Of the two of us, I appear to be the only one genuinely conversant about what has even gone on since 1933.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2013, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
5,192 posts, read 4,387,077 times
Reputation: 3821
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
Thoughts?
I agree with the premise of the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
...some people that want permission slips from the government stating what they can and cannot do.
Yes, and this, we should note, happens pretty equitably within BOTH the major political parties in the USA. Among their leaders and lay members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
There are no such things as "god given rights." To the extent that anyone or any group has rights, they were taken, not given. We chose as a nation to take our rights and secure them under the authority of a Constitution. That Constitution created a government tasked to secure and protect those rights and most importantly to manage their conflict. This was done under the certainly correct understanding that without the coercive power of a government such rights soon destroy each other. We are therefore a nation of laws, not of men.

Though uneven and imperfect (as all human endeavors are) our system has worked for almost a quarter of a millennium.
If you are the author of this, kudos to you. This is probably the most concise and well-spoken paragraph+ I have ever seen on an internet forum. And I've ridden a few of those rodeos. Nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
Almost everything our government "does for us" is by coercion.

They cannot do what they do unless they take from one to give to another.
I think something really fundamental that people often forget (and the fact that they do forget is a sad testament to how far we've strayed from this notion) is that the governent is, ostensibly, supposed to be us. Remember: by, of and for The People.

I am not saying that the gov't in this country actually functions that way, and it has grown less inclined to do so all the time since its inception. There's a pervasive "Citizens v Government" feeling, some of it not unearned.

Frankly, neither party is doing "The Will of The People."

This country, at the national level, is bought and sold and run by multinational CEOs, heads of global banks and energy concerns, and wealthy and powerful lobbying groups. It's them that runs things.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2013, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,792 posts, read 3,895,415 times
Reputation: 4302
I would argue that there ARE NO "natural rights". All rights must be fought for and only exist as long as you or the society you live in has the ability to enforce those rights.

You only have the right to life if you are able to defend yourself. Even in our "safe" society, court case after court case proves that the police have no requirement to defend your body against harm! That job is up to you.

The "right" of free expression is only valid as long as you can enforce that right. If you don't believe me, travel to Iran, go to a busy town square, and start screaming that Muhammad was a pedophile.

Or go to south-central LA, find the biggest thug you can, and tell him you have the right to call him a wuss AND you have the right to life AND you have the right to not have him and his gang beat you to a bloody pulp. See how well those "natural rights" work for you.

Same for the "right" to keep and bear arms. That right was part of the 1686 British Bill of Rights ("no royal interference in the freedom of the people to have arms for their own defence as suitable to their class and as allowed by law"), but it was slowly stripped away to the present point of non-existence. The NRA and the GOA have problems, but they are doing a good job of protecting our rights to self-protection through firearms here in the USA.


In essence, as there are no "natural rights", our ancestors banded together and created a government with the power to enforce the rights they wanted enforced. They enumerated those rights into the constitution in the form of the Bill of Rights. The rights do not exist without the power of the government to back them up. AND, the power of the government only exists as long as the people allow it to have that power.

Last edited by jwkilgore; 04-27-2013 at 02:06 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2013, 02:19 PM
 
17,028 posts, read 9,550,864 times
Reputation: 5701
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
There are no such things as "god given rights." To the extent that anyone or any group has rights, they were taken, not given. We chose as a nation to take our rights and secure them under the authority of a Constitution. That Constitution created a government tasked to secure and protect those rights and most importantly to manage their conflict. This was done under the certainly correct understanding that without the coercive power of a government such rights soon destroy each other. We are therefore a nation of laws, not of men.

Though uneven and imperfect (as all human endeavors are) our system has worked for almost a quarter of a millennium.




Looks like there has been a most active trend to subvert these very thing that continues and even grows.
Now the coercive govermnet destroys them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2013, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Missouri
3,751 posts, read 3,096,011 times
Reputation: 1617
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
There are no such things as "god given rights." To the extent that anyone or any group has rights, they were taken, not given. We chose as a nation to take our rights and secure them under the authority of a Constitution. That Constitution created a government tasked to secure and protect those rights and most importantly to manage their conflict. This was done under the certainly correct understanding that without the coercive power of a government such rights soon destroy each other. We are therefore a nation of laws, not of men.

Though uneven and imperfect (as all human endeavors are) our system has worked for almost a quarter of a millennium.
Very well put as were your other posts. The Dude abides on this thread...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in the Southwest...
336 posts, read 385,456 times
Reputation: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesjuke View Post
Looks like there has been a most active trend to subvert these very thing that continues and even grows.
Now the coercive govermnet destroys them.
Yes, and more accurately it is statists that believe that .GOV as the ultimate authority and power, and not Rule of Law and the Natural Rights of the People.

Moreover, statist politicos make up rights as they go, which are to be controlled by the .GOV of course - The interpret all Rights as .GOV conferred privileges:

Holder Calls Amnesty a 'Civil Right' | Amnesty | Fox Nation
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2013, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in the Southwest...
336 posts, read 385,456 times
Reputation: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
There is no evidence of that anywhere in this thread.

As a descendent of peasants, sulfur miners and highwaymen... I am just as proud of my ancestors (and just as unable to claim any credit for anything they did) as you are.


Of the two of us, I appear to be the only one genuinely conversant about what has even gone on since 1933.
As far as I have noticed, I am the only one that has specifically mentioned a time period here, specifically the status of Emergency Powers since 1933, did I miss some theoretical you discussed?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top