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Old 05-02-2013, 01:04 PM
 
1,066 posts, read 1,115,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
Travel, yes. Entry with the right to stay indefinitely...not so much.
Ok. Why do people not have the right not stay indefinitely?
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:42 PM
 
36,787 posts, read 16,356,564 times
Reputation: 9900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineComedy View Post
You disagree with what?

Why do people not have the right to travel freely upon the earth?
Is this a serious question because I wondered from what your screen name is. Why don't you ask all the individual governments why they have borders and restrict whom they allow to come to their countries and how long they will be allowed to stay? I am sure you know the answer to that already though unless you are a 5 year old who has no knowledge of how the world works.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:43 PM
 
36,787 posts, read 16,356,564 times
Reputation: 9900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineComedy View Post

Really?
The way that I see it there is no right to deny a person entry into any country
And who dictates this so-called right?
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:44 PM
 
1,066 posts, read 1,115,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Why don't you ask all the individual governments why they have borders and restrict whom they allow to come to their countries and how long they will be allowed to stay?
From where do governments derive the right to deny access to land?
It's a simple question, can you answer it?
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:49 PM
 
36,787 posts, read 16,356,564 times
Reputation: 9900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineComedy View Post
From where do governments derive the right to deny access to land?
It's a simple question, can you answer it?
Again, is this a serious question? If you don't like the way the world/countries have operated since time began than get an education as to why. I don't answer ridiculous questions.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:52 PM
 
1,111 posts, read 1,132,348 times
Reputation: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Are you serious? Because hundreds of years ago our population was much smaller. Here in the U.S. our economy has tanked and jobs are scarce and we have over 315 million people here now. Do you not know what is meant by the carrying capacity of a country? It isn't about land space but the above things and the availability of natural and social resources to support a given population.

What about the unique identities of every country? Their own langauges, cultures and values? How do they retain that with massive immigration?
Overpopulation is the only reason I can see a problem with "outsiders" coming in. Companies in this country are all to quick to ship their jobs overseas, and there simply isn't enough jobs for the people who live here. Sadly, the real issue is overpopulation which isn't going to be fixed by making it harder for people to move into the country, that's just a bandaid. The bigger problem will have to be dealt with.

As far as the part of your post that I highlighted, there is a simple but unfortunate reason for people thinking this way. Our country is built on the idea that what was good for 1776 is good for present day. Ever notice how hard it is to change something in the constitution? You're right. Our world today is way different and needs to change with the times, but our culture in the US is to try to abide by the ways of the old.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:52 PM
 
1,066 posts, read 1,115,885 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Again, is this a serious question? If you don't like the way the world/countries have operated since time began than get an education as to why. I don't answer ridiculous questions.
I understand why.
I'm asking from where they derive the right to do so.
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Exeter, NH
5,300 posts, read 4,401,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackscorpion View Post
I think entering ANY country should be made easier as long as you don't have a criminal background and can provide for yourself. Hundreds of years before, people were able to move where they wanted to, why shouldn't we be able to do so now?
COST VERSUS BENEFIT: Because hundreds of years ago, when you moved here, you couldn't expect others to pay the education of your children as well as health care, food, housing, and social services (including Law Enforcement) for the whole family. In addition, we had plenty of resources and land, and not enough labor to make use of them all.

RISE OF THE WELFARE STATE; FALL OF THE MIDDLE CLASS: We have a "Defense" Department larger than all the other militaries in the world put together, but no effort is made to stem the invasion of huge numbers of people that do not reflect the political leanings of the average American. Early America was established and thrived on the principles of Libertarianism (small and fiscally responsible government). The Founding Fathers (and most native-born Americans prior the rise of the Welfare State) understood that freedom could only exist when centralized (federal) government was relatively powerless, and focused only on defense and trade issues. The primarily-European immigrants prior to 1965 reflected the same values as those already here.

But in 1965, a change in federal law resulted in a massive influx of hispanics (primarily from Latin America), to the point that by 2050 the U.S. Census predicts 1/4 of the population to be of Hispanic descent. These people support Democrat politicians that provide them with generous Welfare benefits and "free" public education for their large families. They are simply too focused on basic things like raising their large families and bringing relatives here to the U.S., to understand or care that the growth of Big Government has allowed Big Business to basically wipe out the American Middle Class and reduce the working class to begging for low-paying, part-time jobs.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS: Even if an immigrant family can "provide for itself" (and the very high rates of immigrants on welfare assistance make this a rare case), increasing school costs alone is a huge burden on the taxpayers of the town or city. The "free" education offered to every child is a HUGE draw for poor families. To make the problem much worse, immigrants have very high birthrates (lots of children per mother): 87.8 per thousand for foreign-born women, versus 58.9% for U.S. born women. That's a lot of extra children added to local school systems, at a cost of between $6,064 to $18,667 per year per child (average of $10,615). http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/10f33pub.pdf

Education accounts for about half of the local tax bill, with property taxes the main source of revenue. In order to avoid raising taxes on the existing residents (just to pay for the additional school costs), an immigrant family would have to pay a minimum of $12,124 in local property taxes (plus income or sales tax going directly to the local government, if any) and only have one child.

With the very low socio-economic status of the vast majority of immigrants, the chance of them paying that much in local taxes is almost nil. Combine that with having only one child, and you'd be lucky to find more than one or two cases in the nation where an immigrant family didn't increase costs for other taxpayers--even if we totally ignored welfare assistance, increased criminal justice costs, and paying for accomodating the "special needs" of immigrants (like hiring bi-lingual teachers), etc.

LAW ENFORCEMENT AND JAILS: Immigrants commit crimes and the taxpayer must pay for more police, more trials, and more jails. Liberals will try to argue that immigrants do not have a higher crime rate than native-born citizens, but it really makes little difference whether they do or not. Taxpayers have to support the costs of apprehending and incarcerating 20% more criminals than they would have otherwise (the approximate percent of jail inmates who are legal or illegal immigrants). Citizens also have at least a 20% higher risk of being the victim of a crime, since the 20% on represents the portion of crimes resulting in jail time. Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Conflicted Issue | Center for Immigration Studies
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:05 PM
 
36,787 posts, read 16,356,564 times
Reputation: 9900
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Rob123 View Post
Overpopulation is the only reason I can see a problem with "outsiders" coming in. Companies in this country are all to quick to ship their jobs overseas, and there simply isn't enough jobs for the people who live here. Sadly, the real issue is overpopulation which isn't going to be fixed by making it harder for people to move into the country, that's just a bandaid. The bigger problem will have to be dealt with.

As far as the part of your post that I highlighted, there is a simple but unfortunate reason for people thinking this way. Our country is built on the idea that what was good for 1776 is good for present day. Ever notice how hard it is to change something in the constitution? You're right. Our world today is way different and needs to change with the times, but our culture in the US is to try to abide by the ways of the old.
Our culture is to abide by the ways of the old? What does that mean? How does making it harder for people to come here not fix the problem of too much population growth? A bandaid????
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:12 PM
 
Location: SE Mass
144 posts, read 105,686 times
Reputation: 71
As standards of living rise, birth rates fall.

Immigration is the only reason the US is experiencing population growth and we're sufficiently capitalist to require constant (economic) growth, something which is hugely problematized by a stagnant or declining population.

I don't care if we establish some kind of crazy Swiss like system where you can legally attain permanent residency but citizenship is nigh impossible (establishing de facto second class citizenry), but we have to keep growing our population.
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