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Old 05-07-2013, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,613,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
I'm an Agnostic.

but bottom line is... without an authority... there IS no right or wrong. Right or wrong comes merely from preference.
If you suppose a supernatural lawgiver, whether you evaluate that the being, and his laws, are good or evil still is derived from your preference.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:07 PM
 
8,100 posts, read 5,003,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
mor·al
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

Right or wrong according to what or whom?
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,613,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
Right or wrong according to what or whom?
According to the judgments of the speaker and those he is trying to persuade, of course.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
According to the judgments of the speaker and those he is trying to persuade, of course.
Ok, so preference!

In a world where we renounce all deist "trump cards" in regards to the consequences of our actions....what is stopping me from killing you if your values threaten mine? What consequences outside of a jail cell would weigh on my conscious?
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,613,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
In a world where we renounce all deist "trump cards" in regards to the consequences of our actions....what is stopping me from killing you if your values threaten mine? What consequences outside of a jail cell would weigh on my conscious?
What is the logical difference between damnation and a jail cell? The difference is only one of details; they are both specimens of the Appeal to Force. This is why so many believers seem unwilling to avoid committing mortal sins.

If force, of ANY kind, is what determines right and wrong, THAT abolishes the meaning of right and wrong.

Last edited by djacques; 05-07-2013 at 03:33 PM..
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
What is the logical difference between damnation and a jail cell? The difference is only one of degree; they are both specimens of the Appeal to Force. This is why so many believers seem unwilling to avoid committing mortal sins.
The difference is huge as they are subjective...one judgment is pretty well observed so we have a real life understanding of what we are facing...the other is only limited by ones imagination.

And in regards to Appeal to Force..I will bring it up again...deists are much more concerned the ethereal consequentialism as opposed to substantial consequences. With lower stakes, albeit grounded in pure logic, you are closer to anarchy than you might ever want to accept.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,613,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
The difference is huge as they are subjective...one judgment is pretty well observed so we have a real life understanding of what we are facing...the other is only limited by ones imagination.

And in regards to Appeal to Force..I will bring it up again...deists are much more concerned the ethereal consequentialism as opposed to substantial consequences. With lower stakes, albeit grounded in pure logic, you are closer to anarchy than you might ever want to accept.
Sorry, but once we allow any discussion of "stakes" to enter the discussion at all, you have already forfeited the main point. Your difference may be a good reason for preaching theism, but it is not a good reason for believing it.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:39 PM
 
8,100 posts, read 5,003,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Sorry, but once we allow any discussion of "stakes" to enter the discussion at all, you have already forfeited the main point. Your difference may be a good reason for preaching theism, but it is not a good reason for believing it.
Yes, that is my point.. preaching theism. I understand the reasons for it, as folklore.

When you even look at it as a tool to control masses, it is no more malignant than a Federal Government.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:41 PM
 
1,964 posts, read 1,581,514 times
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the strawman army here at last.

i got **** to do, the internet contains all the information you need to reach the correct conclusion. Good luck.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:46 PM
 
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LOL - wait, where is the strawman???
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