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Old 05-04-2013, 07:06 PM
 
Location: In your head, rent free
14,888 posts, read 10,029,032 times
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Whether we need them or not doesn't really matter to me, you figure out how to fund them and run with the idea without touching tax dollars which are already overspent.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Suffolk, Va
3,027 posts, read 2,518,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikett View Post
It's true. We can fund the public educational system, or we can fund the correctional system. As for only people with pre-K kids paying - for society to work, we all have to contribute. An educated populace is a benefit to society on multiple levels.
It is indeed a great benefit to society. It should be considered criminal to defund public education. But, also, those of us who support public education should demand high standards in all schools.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:14 PM
 
Location: California
37,121 posts, read 42,189,292 times
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I don't think we do. I'm not convinced we need any at all but I get the arguments..poor single moms blablabla. I'm not mocking, just don't want to repeat it all.

I'd like to see what we have now, K-12 and higher education, funded well. The preschool stuff is less important to me and I do feel this is when mom/dad/family need to be working with, spending time with, and educating their kids and getting them ready for K. It's a brief period of time and if you can't dedicate even that to your kids why bother having them.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Suffolk, Va
3,027 posts, read 2,518,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Whether we need them or not doesn't really matter to me, you figure out how to fund them and run with the idea without touching tax dollars which are already overspent.
Well, we're not doing it without tax money. But this is money well spent. What about the tax dollars wasted jailing people who could have had a better quality of life if they had had a better education?
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:18 PM
 
Location: California
37,121 posts, read 42,189,292 times
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Originally Posted by Californian34 View Post
Well, we're not doing it without tax money. But this is money well spent. What a out the tax dollars wasted jailing people who could have had a better quality of life if they had had a better education?
Everyone says that about their cause. Everyone is right. There still isn't enough money. And it's not going to change things jail wise, it's just not.

Last edited by Ceece; 05-04-2013 at 07:34 PM..
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:19 PM
 
Location: In your head, rent free
14,888 posts, read 10,029,032 times
Reputation: 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Californian34 View Post
Well, we're not doing it without tax money. But this is money well spent. What a out the tax dollars wasted jailing people who could have had a better quality of life if they had had a better education?
Where is this money supposed to come from. Put all the fuzzy crap aside and look at the facts. You're talking about a gov. funded preschool program... billions and billions of dollars what we just don't have. Where will that money come from?
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:22 PM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
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Nope. I posted about this on another thread:

I have been reading research on this subject for many years now. I have also worked in a number of early child education programs as well as public elementary schools. I'm still no expert, but here are my conclusions:

Of all the research I've read, positive LONG TERM outcomes from preschool have only been achieved by early childhood programs that have had a huge parent education/involvement element. Just putting kids in preschool will not work. At all. In fact, I have read numerous studies showing that early direct academic instruction has more long term negative effects than good outcomes, including higher incarceration rates and drop out rates, as well as lower test scores beyond the third grade.

There is tons of evidence that the biggest effects on long term literacy achievement happen before children are even old enough to be in preschool. The more oral language that children are exposed to during the first few years of life, the better outcomes for the rest of their life. Of course, when this is studied, we find out that children from low-income homes are exposed to the least amount of words. Parents are not reading to their children, nor talking to them. When they do, they are using very limited vocabulary. I would think, at least for literacy, the best approach is intervention at birth and equipping parents to expose their children to a vast amount of oral language.

Besides this, another huge factor for both life and academic success is self regulation. Children who enter elementary school with well developed self regulation are pretty much bound for success. And children learn this best when their caregivers model appropriate self regulation themselves. With this, preschool can help, but children are still most influenced by their parents. In this area, preschool will never provide more than very modest gains. Intervention in the home is needed. Badly.

Also, children gain a great deal of self-regulation ability through play. If you put them in teacher directed academic preschools (which it seems is what Obama is pushing), they are missing out on a lot of self directed play that will help them develop self regulation in a healthy, natural way.

And then, there is the fact that early academic instruction can be harmful in other ways. If children are not developmentally prepared to learn certain academics (meaning identifying letters and sight words, basic math, etc...which a vast majority of preschoolers are not ready to learn), teaching these things to them is not a good idea. Instead of really comprehending what they are being taught, they develop "splinter skills." Meaning, they memorize this stuff and can pass tests, but they never develop an integrative understanding of the abstract concept behind it. Then their brains start to learn everything in this shallow way...for the rest of their lives. Not a good outcome, if you ask me.

I think we should not dismiss the progress that Finland has made in education. They went from very average compared to the world to the top in PISA scores. Now they consistently are staying at the top. While the US has pushed for earlier and earlier instruction and more standardized tests, Finland has been doing things completely differently and getting amazing results.

Interestingly, they have no formal academic instruction until children are seven years old, but they do focus on preparing parents to do what is developmentally appropriate to prepare their children for success. This is from wikipedia:

"To foster a culture of reading, parents of newborn babies are given three books, one for each parent, and a baby book for the child, as part of the "maternity package".[5] According to Finnish child development specialist Eeva Hujala, "Early education is the first and most critical stage of lifelong learning. Neurological research has shown that 90% of brain growth occurs during the first five years of life, and 85% of the nerve paths develop before starting school (n. b. At the age of seven in Finland)."[6] "Care" in this context is synonymous with upbringing and is seen as a cooperative endeavor between parents and society to prepare children physically (eating properly, keeping clean) and mentally (communication, social awareness, empathy, and self-reflection) before beginning more formal learning at age seven. The idea is that before seven they learn best through play, so by the time they finally get to school they are keen to start learning."

Granted, Finland has vastly different demographics than the United States, but they are not without poverty and disadvantaged children. UN and Finalnd allows anyone from a UN country to move to Finland and automatically be entitled to everything that Finnish citizens are entitled to. This means there are tons of poverty stricken, uneducated people immigrating there from former Soviet Union countries...who do not speak the native languages (which there are two national languages already to begin with that educators have to work with). Not the ideal students or parents to work with at all.

And just some non-important anecdotal evidence. From a statistical point of view, I was a high risk disadvantaged child living in poverty. I didn't attend preschool and only went to half day kindergarten at age five. My younger brother and sister came into the world when our family was at a middle class status. They both started a private academic preschool program at age three and started full day kindergarten at five. Both of them have scored significantly lower than I ever did on every standardized test they have ever taken. I had no problem getting high enough grades and ACT scores to get into most competitive private colleges while both of them barely got high enough ACT scores to get into a state university. My sister is currently struggling to get through a community college program. I'm not trying to boast at all, but point out that they had much better academic instruction and preparedness than I did, and it seemed to have harmed them.

I'll also add: as someone who has had to force three and four year olds to sit still and do academic work when their bodies and minds want to explore and play, I have to say, it is depressing as h*ll. I'll go as far as to say that it borders on being abusive. Yes, there are some three and four year olds who are ready to do this kind of work, as children develop at astonishingly different levels. Some are ready for this at three or four. Those children enjoy it and thrive. However, the vast majority of preschoolers are not in this category. There are many five and six year olds who are not ready for this level of academic instruction either. If anything, forcing academics on these children sets them up to hate school and learning in any context. That is a tragedy.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,297 posts, read 120,694,120 times
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^^Re: your conclusion:

I do not think what is being proposed (if anything is being proposed) is an academic curriculum for 3 and 4 yos.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas,Nevada
9,282 posts, read 6,739,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmagoo View Post
Yes.We know the old saying....If you think education is expensive,try ignorance.
lets compare the cost, value, and perform of Americas education before and after the Department of Education/NEA took over..
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:59 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,442,711 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
^^Re: your conclusion:

I do not think what is being proposed (if anything is being proposed) is an academic curriculum for 3 and 4 yos.
That's how kindergarten started out..non-academic and it started out as 1/2 day.
But now..it's academics.
The DOE and their Common Core is throwing Piaget's theory out the window


City making kindergarten more a chore than a joy, teachers say - NYPOST.com
Way beyond the ABCs, crayons and building blocks, the city Department of Education now wants 4- and 5-year-olds to write “informative/explanatory reports” and demonstrate “algebraic thinking.”
..
“This is causing a lot of anxiety,” the teacher said. “Kindergarten should be happy and playful. It should be art and dancing and singing and learning how to take turns. Instead, it’s frustrating and disheartening.”

The city has adopted national standards called the Common Core, which dramatically raise the bar on what kids in grades K through 12 should know.
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