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Old 05-09-2013, 08:43 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,716,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
If you want a preview of the future of American health care, just look to Canada
Theres is a few...problems with that opinion. And by "problems" I mean that it is based off assumptions that do not have any foundation in reality.

First off, Canada has a national insurance system, an NI. The US has a mixed system where veterans are on NHS style Beveridge model, the poor and old are on a NI system, the employed on a BIsmarck model, and the rest on a third-world out-of-pocket model.

The US is not moving towards a NI model. Expanded insurance coverage moves it towards the Bismarck model, where individual health care is financed through insurance. To see where the US is trying to get to, look at Switzerland, the Netherlands, and especially Germany.

Second, while Canada does have longer waits than the US, that makes it an exception among UHC countries more than a rule:



So while Canada does better than America in most areas of health care, waiting time is not one of those areas. Most UHC countries beat both in that area, including those the US system is attemption to inch painfully towards.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
9,700 posts, read 4,531,222 times
Reputation: 4264
Complain all you want about other countries' healthcare systems. The fact remains, the vast majority of the world wouldn't trade their "broken" system, for our private, job-centric system.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:17 AM
 
Location: East St. Paul 651 forever (or North St. Paul) .
2,865 posts, read 3,119,865 times
Reputation: 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
Complain all you want about other countries' healthcare systems. The fact remains, the vast majority of the world wouldn't trade their "broken" system, for our private, job-centric system.
So Eddie, you've met every person in these other countries, and you yourself have lived under these systems I presume since your opinion is without question?
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:28 AM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,630 posts, read 13,679,355 times
Reputation: 15823
I understand Canadians live longer than Americans ... and are generally healthier.

Google "Life expectancy by country." Canada is near the top. The US is not.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:41 AM
 
41,523 posts, read 21,127,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Govie View Post
Most Americans here in their liberal dogma will never admit it, and most have never had any experience with the Canadian system, but it is NOT superior to the American system, nor is it, a country 10 percent the size of America, the system for our country.
I've had experience with the Danish, the German ad the US health care systems, and the US systems for is, frankly, inferior. Not in the treatment options - the medical professionals I've interacted with have been anywhere between good and superb - but in the financing. The US model is a mind-numbing amount of bureaucracy and paper-pushing, loaded with for-profit operators whose sole purpose is to maximize intake and minimize pay-outs. The numbers, by the way, carry this out - the US system is an absolute world-beater in the administrative overhead involved in administering healthcare. That's not even debatable.

As for population size, that's actually even more embarrassing - economy of scale should make it easier, not harder, for the US to streamline something as simple as funding universal healthcare.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:47 AM
 
41,523 posts, read 21,127,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Govie View Post
So Eddie, you've met every person in these other countries, and you yourself have lived under these systems I presume since your opinion is without question?
The fact - whether you like it or not - is that no country with UHC has any serious political faction arguing in favor of dismantling it. Stepping up in front of a group of voters from - let's say the UK? - and argue in favor of dismantling the NHS in favor of an American system would be political suicide. Every country with UHC has voices suggesting how it can be improved, but there is no market for the US model - it's held up as how not to do it.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:48 AM
 
Location: East St. Paul 651 forever (or North St. Paul) .
2,865 posts, read 3,119,865 times
Reputation: 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
I've had experience with the Danish, the German ad the US health care systems, and the US systems for is, frankly, inferior. Not in the treatment options - the medical professionals I've interacted with have been anywhere between good and superb - but in the financing. The US model is a mind-numbing amount of bureaucracy and paper-pushing, loaded with for-profit operators whose sole purpose is to maximize intake and minimize pay-outs. The numbers, by the way, carry this out - the US system is an absolute world-beater in the administrative overhead involved in administering healthcare. That's not even debatable.

As for population size, that's actually even more embarrassing - economy of scale should make it easier, not harder, for the US to streamline something as simple as funding universal healthcare.
So the larger the country the easier the system? Nice anecdote there, with no proof whatsoever.


My brother in law and sister have lived under two socialized systems (Canada and England) and of course American systems, and while I will concede that some things may be better (if you get hit by a car, for example) they both told me that America is the best system, and that "Obamacare" will be devastating for America.

His grandfather had to wait - and unhealthy, dangerous wait - in Canada for a pacemaker. This is common throughout the provinces, however: Wait-time reality fails patients - Winnipeg Free Press

Also there is no evidence whatsoever that the Canadian (or any other) model would fit the American system. Lastly, keep in mind that every state in the Union has a certain amount of discretion on state and local health coverage. In MN here we have what is called GAMC (other wise known as MA or Minnesota Care) that gives people more or less "free" health coverage or very low premiums who fall under a certain income categories.

Now we have already seen uptick in health coverage thanks to Dear Leader:

http://www.twincities.com/ci_23184288

If you are naive enough to think the littlest people in America aren't going to be hit by this - the middle class more specifically - you are far too stuck in your ways.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:52 AM
 
1,347 posts, read 2,146,922 times
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I favor a single payer system in the US. Much like the NHS in the UK, you can buy private insurance coverage if you prefer but everyone should have a basic level of health insurance...especially given the costs to medical care (its one, if not the only service you don't negotiate ahead of time. Don't have insurance? Here's an outrageous bill! Can't pay for it, fine we'll destroy your credit and hound you for years)
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
9,700 posts, read 4,531,222 times
Reputation: 4264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Govie View Post
So Eddie, you've met every person in these other countries, and you yourself have lived under these systems I presume since your opinion is without question?
1. I said "vast majority" not "every single person," so whatever point you're heading towards is moot.

2. Lol... feel free to point to a political movement anywhere in a foreign country that's rallying to adopt our style of insurance coverage.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:56 AM
 
41,523 posts, read 21,127,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Govie View Post
So the larger the country the easier the system? Nice anecdote there, with no proof whatsoever.
Economy of scale is an anecdote now? If you say so.

Quote:
My brother in law and sister have lived under two socialized systems (Canada and England) and of course American systems, and while I will concede that some things may be better (if you get hit by a car, for example) they both told me that America is the best system, and that "Obamacare" will be devastating for America.
The PPACA is far from perfect, but sometimes you have to take what you can. A public option would have improved things.

Quote:
His grandfather had to wait - and unhealthy, dangerous wait - in Canada for a pacemaker. This is common throughout the provinces, however: Wait-time reality fails patients - Winnipeg Free Press
You don't think there are waiting times in the US system? If anything, there are more cardiac problems going undiagnosed, simply because people have less access to preventative care.
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