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Old 11-12-2007, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Northeast TN
3,885 posts, read 8,121,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
I agree, Informed Consent. Even our universities aren't keeping up with the rest of the world.

But I don't blame the teachers. I blame PTOs, administration, testing requirements, the dumbing down of curriculum to reach the lowest common denominator, not to challenge people to strive to be better.

It's a complex issue.

Teachers, if nothing else, are being asked to form the minds of children, many of whom have no parental intervention in their lives.
Completely true and it's getting worse by the year. I'm baffled at the superintendents and admins choices of curriculum and strict guidelines concerning day to day classroom activities. I am convinced that they haven't spent any length of time in the classroom or in attempting to understand cognitive development in children.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:17 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,002 posts, read 44,804,275 times
Reputation: 13697
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
I agree, Informed Consent. Even our universities aren't keeping up with the rest of the world.

But I don't blame the teachers. I blame PTOs, administration, testing requirements, the dumbing down of curriculum to reach the lowest common denominator, not to challenge people to strive to be better.

It's a complex issue.

Teachers, if nothing else, are being asked to form the minds of children, many of whom have no parental intervention in their lives.
The dumbing down of the curriculum is a significant factor in what has gone wrong in K-12 education. Alarmingly, the dumbing down may have been intentional social engineering - not just to 'reach' the lowest common denominator, but to 'equalize' educational outcomes in order to equalize incomes with the end goal of redistributing our country's wealth.

This has happened under the ideology of social justice education and educators' desire to reform society into one in which nearly everyone's educational levels and income levels are equal so that privileged or disadvantaged members of society no longer exist.

In order for the vast majority to reach the same educational level, that level would have to be quite a bit below average so that much more than 50% of the population could realistically reach that educational level.

Where does the idea of equalizing educational outcomes come from?

Just two examples:

Education and Social Cohesion: Recentering the Debate, The Peabody Journal of Education, Vanderbilt University, 76(3&4), 1-6 (2001)

The premise is depicted (as Figure 1) in the Journal article as follows:

"Educational Outcomes Equality => Income Equality => Social Cohesion"

and explained as:

"Put simply, countries with education systems producing more equal outcomes in terms of skills and qualifications are likely to have more equal distribution of income, and this in turn promotes social cohesion."

and...

Professor Paul George (University of Florida) has stated that middle schools should become "the focus of societal experimentation, the vehicle for movement toward increasing justice and equality in the society as a whole... Schools are not about taking each child as far as he or she can go. They're about redistributing the wealth of the future."

Educators believe they are doing the right, moral, ethical thing by thwarting advanced students' efforts to develop their potential. They are convinced that it isn't fair or just that some students will be able to reach higher levels of
achievement than others.

Noble intention, but what has gone horribly wrong in this 'social leveling' scheme is that the world has evolved into a global economy in which one's marketable skills are now facing worldwide competition in the global arena - and other countries' students are kicking our students' butts.
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Old 11-13-2007, 03:02 PM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,757,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post

"Nearly a quarter century ago, the National Science Board's Commission on Precollege Education in Mathematics, Science and Technology assessed the state of U.S. precollege education in the subject fields and found it wanting. In the intervening years, we have failed to raise the achievement of U.S. students commensurate with the goal articulated by that Commission—that U.S. precollege achievement should be "best in the world by 1995"—and many other countries have surpassed us. Not only are they not first, but by the time they reach their senior year, even the most advanced U.S. students perform at or near the bottom on international assessments." - NSF
Maybe it isn't the schools or the teachers.

Maybe.... It is our CULTURE!

Why do Asian children generally do better in American schools then Americans (generally)?


What does our culture value? Inconise?
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:02 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,002 posts, read 44,804,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Maybe it isn't the schools or the teachers.

Maybe.... It is our CULTURE!

Why do Asian children generally do better in American schools then Americans (generally)?
I'm not buying into the idea that it's our culture, unless by that you mean the culture permeating our public school systems.

Plenty of American parents are outraged at the dumbed down education their children are getting in the public schools. Why do you think the Sylvan, Huntington, Score!, Kumon, etc., learning/tutoring centers have grown into a multi-billion dollar industry? Parents who can afford to do so are paying extra to buy the education their children are not getting in public school.

Good for them, but what about the socioeconomically disadvantaged families and the families who are struggling because of a job loss or serious illness? They do not have the money to buy a comparable education. Are their children expendable?

It's interesting that the achievement of Asian students is noted in your post. Here in Illinois, the Japanese Chamber of Commerce of Chicago (JCCC) has founded The Futabakai Schools. According to the JCCC, "The schools allow Japanese families to fully participate in their U.S. assignment without compromising their Japanese culture or the education of their children."

...participate in their U.S. assignment without compromising the education of their children.

These schools are not located in the inner city; they're in suburbs which have high performing public schools.
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:29 AM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,757,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
I'm not buying into the idea that it's our culture, unless by that you mean the culture permeating our public school systems.
What do we value? We value celebrity. We value rap stars. We value sports. We pretend we value education, yet most adults don't even read. You can't send mixed messages and then expect youth to learn it.

FWIW - People have been railing about the failure of the education system since the 1940's. It's the same song.

Quote:
Plenty of American parents are outraged at the dumbed down education their children are getting in the public schools. Why do you think the Sylvan, Huntington, Score!, Kumon, etc., learning/tutoring centers have grown into a multi-billion dollar industry? Parents who can afford to do so are paying extra to buy the education their children are not getting in public school.
How does that change the fact that our society fails to put emphasis on things that are important? What do we focus on in politics? Edwards haircuts? Gotcha questions that have no bearing on the running of this country. Weather PC has gone amuk because businesses use "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Xmas". These are non-starters.

Quote:
They do not have the money to buy a comparable education. Are their children expendable?
Education starts at home and is lead by the parents. I don't have top dollar to spend on pre-school for my kid. My kid does not have the best caregiver in the world in terms of her education. But, she is 2.5 years old, knows her numbers, can count to 20, and speaks in whole paragraph. She didn't get that from her caregiver. She got that at HOME, from her parents. She values books. Why, because her parents actually have books in the home, and she see her parents actually reading them, not just to her, but to themselves.

How can you expect a kid to get the message that books are important if you don't read, but preach?

Quote:
...participate in their U.S. assignment without compromising the education of their children.


Japanese culture values education as part of its culture. They put more and more pressure on their kids as they age. They don't expect great performance in football. They expect great performance in science. They don't try to overemphasize education on little ones. Instead, they expect school to get more and more rigourous as they get older. Not more and more filled with superflous fluff. It's our culture to blame. Economically disadvantaged kids do well in any school if their parents are on the ball.
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:44 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,460 posts, read 26,326,009 times
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Roseba -

Great post!

Ken
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Old 11-14-2007, 10:32 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,002 posts, read 44,804,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
How does that change the fact that our society fails to put emphasis on things that are important?
Apparently, there's a sizeable segment of our society that does value education so much that they are willing to spend Billions of dollars to buy their children the education they are not getting in our public schools.

It may seem like the same song since the 1940s, but the multi-billion dollar learning/tutoring center industry is a recent development.

Not only are parents railing against the public education system, but they are now also 'putting their money where there mouth is' by paying their hard-earned, already taxed income on what public schools fail to provide in too many cases - academic excellence (otherwise known as basic proficiency to the rest of the industrialized world).

Quote:
Japanese culture values education as part of its culture. They put more and more pressure on their kids as they age. They don't expect great performance in football. They expect great performance in science. They don't try to overemphasize education on little ones. Instead, they expect school to get more and more rigourous as they get older. Not more and more filled with superflous fluff. It's our culture to blame.
Where are the public schools for the multitudes of American parents (the ones who collectively are spending Billions of dollars each year on learning/tutoring centers) who want schools to get more and more rigorous in the higher grades and do not want the superfluous fluff impeding their children's education?

Why are so many American students denied the academic education that their families value, support, and want for their children with the excuse that 'our society doesn't value academics'?

Clearly, there's a sizeable segment of our society that does value academics. Private industry - the learning/tutoring centers - have stepped in to reap the extra Billions of dollars that parents are willing to pay to support their children's education.
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Old 11-14-2007, 10:45 AM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,757,388 times
Reputation: 1349
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Apparently, there's a sizeable segment of our society that does value education so much that they are willing to spend Billions of dollars to buy their children the education they are not getting in our public schools.
There is a sizeable segment of our society that has been brainwashed into believing that schools and educators are the problem.

When performance is better in private schools, it isn't because the schools are better, it is because the PARENTS are better. (It's a self-selected population. Those same kids of engaged parents would do well anywhere.)


Quote:
It may seem like the same song since the 1940s, but the multi-billion dollar learning/tutoring center industry is a recent development.
Why not? There's lot of profit to be made. That doesn't change the nature of the issue.

Quote:
Not only are parents railing against the public education system, but they are now also 'putting their money where there mouth is' by paying their hard-earned, already taxed income on what public schools fail to provide in too many cases - academic excellence (otherwise known as basic proficiency to the rest of the industrialized world).
People spend money on things for a variety of reasons. They aren't always sound reasons. Some do not want to tutor their own kids, or fell ill-equipped to do so, or have not enough time. And how does that change the fact that many of those who send their kids to tutors do not have a lifelong education mindset themselves.

It's my uncle complaining that his kids don't eat vegetables. Yet, when he makes them vegetables, he eats little of it himself. He says he just doesn't understands why they don't like it. He always fed it to him. But in every bite of vegetables, he gives the message that veggies are to be tolerated, not enjoyed.

It's the same thing about education. Parents that are engaged in life-long education rarely raise kids that fail to get an adequate education. It's only those who DON'T practice what they preach, and instead, rely on paying someone else to do their work.

A child's first and most important educator, is their parent.



Where are the public schools for the multitudes of American parents (the ones who collectively are spending Billions of dollars each year on learning/tutoring centers) who want schools to get more and more rigorous in the higher grades and do not want the superfluous fluff impeding their children's education?

Why are so many American students denied the academic education that their families value, support, and want for their children with the excuse that 'our society doesn't value academics'?

Clearly, there's a sizeable segment of our society that does value academics. Private industry - the learning/tutoring centers - have stepped in to reap the extra Billions of dollars that parents are willing to pay to support their children's education.[/quote]
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Old 11-14-2007, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,169 posts, read 24,326,022 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
FWIW - People have been railing about the failure of the education system since the 1940's. It's the same song.

Actually, it's more like since the 1970s. That's when our whole society decided that chldren knew more than their parents, courts knew more than the people, women and men were identical, and everything started to go to hell, including education.

Japanese culture values education as part of its culture. They put more and more pressure on their kids as they age. They don't expect great performance in football. They expect great performance in science. They don't try to overemphasize education on little ones. Instead, they expect school to get more and more rigourous as they get older. Not more and more filled with superflous fluff. It's our culture to blame. Economically disadvantaged kids do well in any school if their parents are on the ball.
Having lived and worked in the Japanese education system myself, it is also an obvious fact that Japanese schools -- physically -- are far inferior to American schools. They lack heat, air conditioning, often even paint. But the kids -- as you correctly point out - work their tails off, because their parents are in charge, and express their love through discipline, not trinkets. And the teachers are well-paid and respected by all levels of society (again, like they used to be in the US prior to the Sixties "devolution".....)
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Old 11-14-2007, 12:09 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,002 posts, read 44,804,275 times
Reputation: 13697
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
There is a sizeable segment of our society that has been brainwashed into believing that schools and educators are the problem.
Instead of the brainwashing you assert, many parents are coming to this conclusion through personal observation of and experience in their children's schools.

Then, being the lifelong learners that they are, the parents begin to research the problems causing the instructional weaknesses they've seen in their own schools. They find that not only are they not alone in observing these problems, but there's a growing segment of our society that is observing and experiencing similar instructional weakness problems in their schools.

Quote:
And how does that change the fact that many of those who send their kids to tutors do not have a lifelong education mindset themselves.
Is that actually true?

Quote:
It's the same thing about education. Parents that are engaged in life-long education rarely raise kids that fail to get an adequate education.
Adequate meaning our top students, those who take calculus, physics, etc., rank at or near the bottom?

Quote:
It's only those who DON'T practice what they preach, and instead, rely on paying someone else to do their work.
Why should parents have to pay someone else - the learning/tutoring centers - to do the the schools' work?
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