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Instead of the brainwashing you assert, many parents are coming to this conclusion through personal observation of and experience in their children's schools.
Then, being the lifelong learners that they are, the parents begin to research the problems causing the instructional weaknesses they've seen in their own schools. They find that not only are they not alone in observing these problems, but there's a growing segment of our society that is observing and experiencing similar instructional weakness problems in their schools.
To accept that, would be to accept the meme that private schools are superior. I don't accept that. I have seen the data.
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Is that actually true?
Um it is pretty evident based on what people do with their recreational time (watch American idol anyone?) It's evident on the level of political discourse. It is evident by our news-tainment industry.
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Adequate meaning our top students, those who take calculus, physics, etc., rank at or near the bottom?
Rank near the bottomn of what? compared to what?
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Why should parents have to pay someone else - the learning/tutoring centers - to do the the schools' work?
Why are teachers expected to do things the work that parents should be doing?
To accept that, would be to accept the meme that private schools are superior. I don't accept that. I have seen the data.
Not necessarily, parents have found similar instructional weaknesses at private schools, as well. Price does not matter, instructional philosophy does.
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Um it is pretty evident based on what people do with their recreational time (watch American idol anyone?) It's evident on the level of political discourse. It is evident by our news-tainment industry.
These are the only people paying to send their children to learning/tutoring centers?
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Rank near the bottomn of what? compared to what?
From the NSF's call for bold efforts to improve K-12 education:
"Our nation's pre-college students still continue to slip further behind in science achievement... our very best 15-year-olds are near the bottom internationally on a test of practical applications of science and mathematical skills."
This refers to the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), in which U.S. advanced students scored near the bottom among more average students of other nations taking the same test.
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Why are teachers expected to do things the work that parents should be doing?
Many parents wish they wouldn't. For children who do not need that level of intervention, it's not a teacher's place to usurp the parents' role in a child's life.
I'm not sure what teachers expect to be paid. They get two weeks at x-mas, one week in the spring, and three months off in the summer. If you took that much time off of any other job you wouldn't make that much either, however I think that teacher pay is more than adequate, I've never met a teacher who didn't live in an expensive house and drive a nice car.
Many parents wish they wouldn't. For children who do not need that level of intervention, it's not a teacher's place to usurp the parents' role in a child's life.
I don't know how any of the evidence you presented falsifies that we have a fundamental flaw in our cultural outlook on education. We live in this society and it is impossible to be innoculated against exposure to a culture, that is has a notion of childhood sloth, followed by the notion that "rich = happiness".
I don't know how any of the evidence you presented falsifies that we have a fundamental flaw in our cultural outlook on education. We live in this society and it is impossible to be innoculated against exposure to a culture, that is has a notion of childhood sloth, followed by the notion that "rich = happiness".
The problem is not a fundamental flaw in our cultural outlook on education. It's the huge mistake we've made in permitting Ed Schools and entrenched educrats to have a controlling influence on America's public education systems.
There are several books about the decline in our public schools and what some of the causes are. Some have been written by education insiders.
Here's just a few:
The War Against Excellence: The Rising Tide of Mediocrity
("Yecke is a former U.S. Department of Education Commissioner for Minnesota. Her volume is the latest in a stream of books by a multitude of authors in recent years exposing unpleasant truths about government schools.
This stream is fighting a broader current. School districts and employee unions invest mightily in public relations to keep parents, taxpayers and politicians convinced that "public education" is doing wonderfully, but just needs more money. "The War Against Excellence" pulls back the curtain to reveal that over the last 20 years or so, middle schools — usually sixth grade to eighth grade — have been infested with an alarmingly anti-academic mindset.") The War Against Excellence [Michigan Education Report]
Angry Parents, Failing Schools
("Synopsis: Something's happening in our nation's schools. Test scores are down. Some students can't read, write, or do math. Angry parents are forming activist groups. Administrators are stonewalling. How did we get in this mess?") Amazon.com: Angry Parents, Failing Schools: Books: Elaine K. Mcewan
Class Warfare: Besieged Schools, Bewildered Parents, Betrayed Kids and the Attack on Excellence
("...offers a first-hand account of the Great American Education War being waged from coast to coast, including the reading wars, math wars, testing wars, and other schoolyard scuffles reported almost daily by the nation’s media. Martin Rochester takes the reader on a field trip that begins with his own upper-middle class suburban school district in St. Louis and then moves on to inner-city locales and some of the best private schools, in showing how “pack pedagogy†has steamrolled parent resistance in promoting disasters such as whole-language, fuzzy math, multiple intelligences theory, teacher-as-coach, the therapeutic classroom, and all the other latest fads found in today’s schools.
A college professor, Rochester became deeply involved in public education as a result of his children’s misadventures in the classroom. After several years of trying to improve the status quo as a dogged volunteer, he graduated from involved parent to informed critic of a system in which “progressive†educators continue to assault the techniques of traditional schooling (ability-grouping, grades, homework, etc), allow nonacademic diversions to crowd out academic study, and subordinate a commitment to excellence to an obsession with “equity.†As a result of his experiences, Rochester concludes that all children are being victimized, not only the most gifted, but especially “average†students and those lower achieving kids whose needs are now supposedly driving the entire curriculum.
Martin Rochester began as a concerned parent and wound up creating a fever chart of what is wrong in our nation’s classrooms.") Amazon.com: Class Warfare: Besieged Schools, Bewildered Parents, Betrayed Kids and the Attack on Excellence: Books: J. Martin Rochester
Ed School Follies: The Miseducation of America's Teachers
("In seeking reasons for the dismal state of contemporary education in the United States, Kramer focuses on teacher training. During the 1988-89 school year, she visited 14 schools of education in New York, Tennessee, Michigan, Southern California, Washington, and Texas, observing classes and interviewing students and professors. In this account, she concludes that most students are idealistic and eager, but are being misguided. She found students woefully ignorant of subject matter, while sometimes lacking in communication skills. Kramer maintains that new students are forced to abandon the instruction of information and knowledge in favor of theories in developing pupil self-esteem, indiscriminate passing, and reforming society. This will certainly be a controversial book. It presents a critical viewpoint and should be required reading for all school administrators, professors of education, prospective teachers, and concerned parents.") Amazon.com: Ed School Follies: The Miseducation of America's Teachers: Books: Rita Kramer
Parents who are actively involved and paying attention to what is going on in their children's education are becoming increasingly fed up with the status quo and they're quickly reaching the tipping point.
Increasing numbers of parents do not want their children forced to be the dumbed-down, captive recipients of what started out to be well-meaning social engineering but with the advent of the global economy (The World is Flat, anyone?) has turned into a lower standard of living threat as we continue to stand by and watch other countries do a much better job of educating their students.
The problem is not a fundamental flaw in our cultural outlook on education. It's the huge mistake we've made in permitting Ed Schools and entrenched educrats to have a controlling influence on America's public education systems.
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Agree 100%.
Those who can, do.
Those who can't do, teach.
Those who can't teach, teach teachers.
Those who can't teach teachers become the dean of the college of Education.
Parents who are actively involved and paying attention to what is going on in their children's education are becoming increasingly fed up with the status quo and they're quickly reaching the tipping point.
Increasing numbers of parents do not want their children forced to be the dumbed-down, captive recipients of what started out to be well-meaning social engineering but with the advent of the global economy (The World is Flat, anyone?) has turned into a lower standard of living threat as we continue to stand by and watch other countries do a much better job of educating their students.
And...
Just one of the many blogs on this issue, with a relevant article:
When I started reading this thread at 1 am, I promised myself I would just go to bed, but I have really enjoyed reading all of your posts.
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Originally Posted by JustinFromBoise
I've never met a teacher who didn't live in an expensive house and drive a nice car.
Justin, brother, you would have loved my '82 Toyota pickup and my 1977 13x65 mobile home placed in a park with a space fee of $400
I'm not complaining though. I loved teaching/coaching for the most part and I was single with a roomie, so it was great. I always recommend teaching to anyone who asks (maybe not axe-murderers).
That being said, I live in a community with median house price of $460K (3rd qtr '07). I haven't been in the school district for several years, but I believe that starting teaching salary is still between $25K-$30K (I could be wrong). Well, anyway, you can do the math ... I mean .. you know .. if your teachers taught you to do that sorta thing ...
roseba and InformedConsent: I have enjoyed reading what you have written and I guess I agree with both of you .. yes public education needs changes (this is one of the reasons I have not gone back yet - I cannot yet reconcile my own issues concerning how I fit into the system).
At the same time, the clear lack of societal relevancy that accompanies education in the United States today is very clear. I think the messages are everywhere.
Example 1: just for kicks, I googled info on the Colorado (my home) state education budget. The first site I found was this .. http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/bud...s/colorado.pdf
Included on this site is a list titled "How the President's 2008 budget will help Colorado's children and families". There's much more on this site than I'm gonna read at 2:30, but this line stood out .. "Provides $31 million to attract and retain highly qualified teachers in Colorado's classrooms." I was thinkin' that sounded pretty good until I remembered reading an article in a bus station sports mag explaining that our state's professional basketball team, The Denver Nuggets, had "provided $21 million to attract and retain just ONE highly qualified baller for our entertanment for just ONE season ("06)". The combined salaries of the Nuggets' top 3 players for last season only were approx. $50mil !! What?!!
Example 2: On the news tonight, I heard that the NY Yankees shortstop is gonna re-sign with the team for .. uh .. $275mil for 10 years ........................
I certainly am not finding fault with the afore mentioned 4 athletes .. they have every right to the money that they can command. Yet, does our society value these four individuals at a level far beyond the level at which we, on a whole, place our own children's education? Obviously. The federal, state, and local gov'ts (our taxes) don't pay these gentlemen, we choose to pay them directly out of our own hard-earned $$. Education is not YET a first tier priority in this country (I do agree that this is changing). Further, what do our kids learn to value, education or the Yankees (no offense to the Yanks). I'm not one who thinks that a college education is mandatory for every child, so I surely mean no offense to these four gentlemen, but I believe they have a combined 1 year of college education .. um .. but we want kids to believe education is important ... ??? Maybe its not ... ??
Finally, to actually tie this back to the OP: so .. $60K for a starting teacher? Let's see .. if a teacher averages $60K/yr. for a 30 year career .. in teacher years (kinda like dog years), it would take about 153 LIFETIMES to equal the Yanks' 10 year offer to their shortstop (I REALLY hope I did the math right).
In light of all of this and in honor of MY teachers, I respectfully submit that $60K is quite possibly offensively too low ... (same applies to nurses, fire fighters, police officers, secretaries, air traffic controllers, dog-groomers, ... and lots of other great people)
Take this for what its worth .. remember, I was just a teacher, not someone who can actually DO something. Thank you for letting me ramble/vent .. best wishes to all !!
Last edited by dgoboy204; 11-16-2007 at 04:25 AM..
Reason: My TEACHERS taught me to read, write, spell, & edit my work
Those who can't teach teachers become the dean of the college of Education.
I always learned it as:
Those who can, do
Those who can't, teach
Those who can't teach, become gym teachers
I've met many great teachers; I've met a few not so great teachers. Currently, our school system is teaching based on tests like the SAT, and/or the state's Standard Of Learning Test ((SOL))
Rather than teaching to teach a subject - they are merely preparing you to pass a test, only teaching you what is necessary to pass the test. Therefore, there are many loopholes and missing information. What's worse are the teachers who teach to push their political agenda.
One of the best teachers I've ever had was in Middle School; Mr. Leon. The self-proclaimed anti-Noel ((Leon backwards..)). He taught the theory of gravity by partially putting a student out a window and watching how gravity pulled on him - he furthered this by having us drop eggs out of the same window (onto the principal's car..). Since it was a math class, we had to calculate the rate of speed and how long the egg would fall before hitting the SUV. Only then could we make the drop. We were the devious class.. but Mr. Leon taught us so well - everybody passed the college test as middle schoolers ((hurray for college credit!))
One of the worst was the severely obese uber-gay Spanish teacher who taught that class while wearing a pair of neon-pink booty shorts. Trust me, he made a lasting impression, just not the good one. Instead of learning about the language and culture, he ranted about how gays need to be able to get married (which I agree with.. but this was a spanish class). I walked out of the class at the end of the year knowing not a word of spanish but the colors and basic basic conversation.
One on hand, you've got bad teachers. On the other, you've got good teachers. I'd love to pay the good teachers more - but usually the bad ones get more. Good teachers will not hesistate to fail a student. Bad ones just gives out free A's.
The teachers of America are teaching the future generations. The blame for falling grades, horrible academics, and increasing drop out rates seemingly closer to second or third world countries does not solely lie on any source.
Parents have to be involved. The level of parental involvement is an influence on grades. The specific school system and administration, the teachers, the material taught from.
The biggest influence on the decline of education - lies with the individual child.
I don't know. I just think public education teachers usually get the blame put on them more often than actually deserved because they are the easiest target. Parents would rather blame a teacher than to admit their child is a dumbarse. Administrations would rather blame a singular teacher than to admit that they didn't fund programs correctly.
People wouldn't learn the basics without Public Education (even private education). So, I wouldn't even disagree with teachers making a hefty penny.
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We were the devious class.. but Mr. Leon taught us so well - everybody passed the college test as middle schoolers ((hurray for college credit!))
