How unions became are there own worst enemy. (cost, dictator, economy)
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To go back to the point of a company with a 20 million dollar CEO. bobtn is right, the 50-100 employee corporation would not have a 20 million dollar CEO unless they are making bank like a Facebook or something which in this case, the CEO would have shared because it is easier. A larger firm where typically a 20 million dollar CEO would exist, it would likely cause thousands of dollars in increases, at most 10K in increases if it is a smaller firm (with thousands of employees.)
Corp profits are all time highs, so it wasn't simply a transfer of costs from line employee to exec. They did get a small portion (big $, but a $20mill CEO whose corps' market cap went up $5 bill is a cost employee of $1 per $250 stock price gain.).
For you to be correct, earnings would have to be flat. They aren't, and my awesome 401K tells me that each week as I check in on a one year increase beyond 30%.
Unless you've converted to cash, it's only paper wealth. The markets have been mostly flat for 10 years now. Nice returns
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-tip motha
The failing of your argument with regard to bankrupting the government is the fact that there exists plenty of money to pay for these union employees in the government that we are simply not collecting in tax revenues. Small businesses pay 35%, but many of our large corporations hide their money in offshore tax shelters and pay between -2% and 6%. Same practice occurs in many of our wealthy citizens. You and I pay a far greater percentage of our income than they do. The money is out there to pay these unions employees, we just aren't collecting it.
Exactly my problem. All the benefit went to the shareholders. The customer is only paying slightly less for the product, and the quality is appalling. There are many made in America alternatives to cheap Asian garbage that costs only 5-10% more, but the quality more than makes up for this in the life of the product. When you shop at Walmart, you don't even have the option to buy these items.
It seems to be OK that your blender is made in Asia. If it fails, no whoop, throw it away and buy another one. Can't say the same thing for a car, airplane, or many of the other heavy manufacturing work we have managed to hang on to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
$15 in the Rust belt stinks. Take out homage to the union exec still making 200k, Federal, State taxes, FICA, Medicare,employee retirement contributions -not all employer now, see the link I just posted, with the GM young guy whose dad is a 44 year vet seeking greener pastures.
Are you kidding? I could live quite well on $15/hr in Metro Detroit. Could even afford to own a home in some parts, so long as the OT continues. And they start at $15/hr, with guaranteed raises. My friend got a union job after graduating college working for Tacom. Government gig working in supply chain management, only a couple bucks higher at $17/hr. It was enough to qualify for an autoloan on a 40K 2013 Mustang with all the trimmings. His cousin got a similar job at a buck lower an hour and bought his first home for 120K. Michigan is not an expensive place to live at all comparatively speaking.
Furthermore, skill trades don't start at $15/hr. Last offer I received was at $18/hr in their tool and die division. Still lower than I can earn in a non union shop though.
Why is COL so cheap in places like TN??? Because nobody wants to live there, that's why! They get their education and get the heck out. COL is higher round these parts because we earn more, and people want to live here for that reason and more. If the opportunity wasn't here, COL would be low like TN, and many parts of the deep south, where wages stink and opportunity is few and far between. You guys might be getting all the low paying assembly work, but we still do most of the brain work up here where the brains reside
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Originally Posted by Adrian71
You can thank unions for bankrupting state and local governments, protecting incompetent workers, and driving jobs out of the United States.
Then why did all the non union jobs follow with them?
The work all left because $1/hr is less than even $10/hr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-tip motha
So why aren't salaries for executives in the tens of millions deemed to be worthy of your scrutiny?
I'm not particularly fond of unions myself. They have a great deal of problems, and their leadership tends to be selfserving as opposed to serving the needs of their members. However, if we are to be fair and scrutinize the entitlement mentality of the union, we must also acknowledge and address the outright greed of the employer. Executive salaries have exploded over the last 20 years. The average American CEO makes 250x what his/her average employee makes. This dramatic increase has coincided with the outsourcing of American jobs for lower base labor costs overseas meaning that unions do not promote outsourcing, but that the urge to grafity shareholders and expand the earnings of management does.
You cannot critique the failings of labor without critiquing the failings of management, who have done far more to harm the economy over the last 30 years.
I'm not a union man myself, but I think it's foolish to place all the blame on them. Wages went down while salaries for professionals increased. In the case of CEO's, they multiplied many times over. There is big money in killing middle class jobs. You'll notice in many successful European and Japanese companies, CEOs make significantly less. They run profitable operations where workers make livable wages. Many are union shops. Walmart workers in Germany have union representation, and their operation runs just fine. Same story for many McDonalds workers in Europe who earn the equivalent of $15/hr in comparable COL parts of Europe. Wages are simply viewed as a cost of doing business. Gotta spend money to make money.
Over here, unions have just been demonized by the right and utilized as the go to excuse for white collar mismanagement. Wish I could blame everyone else for my incompetence at work
Wouldn't it be great if common sense was common in the workplaces of the United States of America?
Not common sense in a communistic way but real common sense that looks at the perspective from both sides of the table and appreciates what the other has to say.
On one hand you have places of employment such as walmart distribution center or waste management garbage collection.Jobs that need to be done safely,efficiently and carefully to avoid worker injuries and also keep the profit margin as big as possible.Which do you think the employer cares about more?
Then you have places like Union run construction companies and govt.contracts where the cost is of little importance and workers feel more entitled to their jobs.The over costs tend to be a lot and benefits packages are huge which only creates inflated wages and contracts because the workers are so entitled to all of the bs they can actually lose focus on what they are supposed to do with over regulations.
Obviously common sense is not so common in the average American corporate union or right wing workplace and ironically these are the companies that keep the economy going.There sure seems to be loads of gimme more, you owe me,take another number,Is it lunchtime/snacktime, Stand around, Don't try to learn anything,who cares,Who you know, I am too good for this type of attitudes though.
No offense to any hard workers out there.
All I know is that the public utility I work for is one of the most profitable utilities in the country, offers the best (lowest) rates to their customers and is forced to treat their employees FAIR by union contract.
No way I would be making the money I make or the pension and benefits if not for a union contract. I return those wages to the community in all that I buy. They would try to get by as low as possible in wages and they would pad their own pockets with that money. Why shouldn't the workers who actually are the gear that turns the wheel of the business share in the profits at a FAIR level?
I don't understand why people hate it just because others have a good job.
I do not like unions from personal experience that I rather not go into. Basically my father needed the union from a work related injury and they did nothing to fight for him.
I need more information before I could consider this point.
Worker's Comp law has changed so drastically in the last 20 years that there very well could have been nothing the union could do.
It's between you and your lawyer and your employers. I had to sue to have my back injury covered and the union was not even involved. I didn't even consider involving them.
Good luck with those union pensions, a number of pensions these days are under funded. If you think the younger union members will pay up think again. Something tells me when push comes to shove they will sacrifice the retirees, by disbanding or better the company files BK and the union plebs can go work at wal mart.
This may not happen next year, but its coming.
Why do people who don't have union pensions always say this? In Minnesota the pensions are strictly regulated.
Basically my father was injured during a snowstorm in January 2005. He was barely off 8 hours after being called in early Saturday morning for snow removal and basically working all day of the Sunday. Sunday night he is home at like 8/10 PM (a little rusty as this was 8 years ago) and he is called in at 5 AM on Monday morning. (Later it was proven that having this much work to time off is dangerous through a series of tractor trailer accidents.) Now before he left Sunday he was told to not drop the sand from the bucket of the sander he used even though he knew it would freeze due to the blizzard conditions. What do you know it freezes over during the night and he had to lodge it out. By doing his slipped and fell twelve feet to the ground shattering his hip socket on impact. He ruptured his acetibula (sorry for the spelling issue) which is a common injury from being t-boned in a car. He rolled to his side to prevent hypothermia (he almost still got it by the way) but by doing this he survived an often possible fatal injury. The staff at the local hospital he was taken to (before being sent elsewhere) were thinking he would not make it because of the type of injury it was (on top of hypothermia.)
While in the hospital several people including union heads, the town supervisor and other higher ups came and told him while he was in his hospital room awaiting the surgery six days later (due to the fact it is a rare injury to repair.) However while he was out, nobody remembered him and they did nothing for him. The machine kept going and only his friends and family knew what actually happened. He was released a year later as he could not do his job and put on disability after going through several different "doctors" chosen by the state's workmen's compensation board. (One was a former gynecologist from what I remember.) Two and a half years after his fall, he was removed from workmen's compensation. (Apparently a hip injury only works for that long.)
This is why I do not particularly like unions. I respect the changes in labor brought about by the Roosevelts and unions but the unions today aren't the unions that actually fought for labor. (I am not getting into the argument of drunk workers or that they aren't skilled, more so for they act for the interest of the employees but by doing so forget about them.) They do not often look out for #1, me and my family. I am working to provide a life for me and my family first and fore-most. If I am working for a union and they go on strike guess what; my bills don't stop and I still have mouths at home I have to feed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PullMyFinger
Why do people who don't have union pensions always say this? In Minnesota the pensions are strictly regulated.
But Minnesota is not everywhere. You have had numerous episodes of corrupt unions for years taking from pensions. The issue is now as Fargobound mentioned, younger employees will be expected to support the retirees. With rising COLs and healthcare costs, they need the wages as much as the retirees need pensions do.
Are you kidding? I could live quite well on $15/hr in Metro Detroit. Could even afford to own a home in some parts, so long as the OT continues
I recall when I made $15 an hour. Of course, I had not completed college yet, and prices were lower 32 years ago. Heck, our clerks make more than that.
BTW, Who would want to live in Beirut (aka Detroit)?
If you can get by on $15, congrats, that's awesome, but far too frugal for me. I spend over half that on vacations and sporting events each year.
Thanks for posting this link. I watched it. It is interesting.
As a side note, did you ever notice that folks with pensions never say they wish they had a 401K instead?
I had the choice back in 1984 to choose either a 401K style of retirement or a traditional pension that pays 70% of my average income for my last 3 years. I thank the voices of my parents and grandparents who lived through the depression in my head when I ignored the slick sales talk and took the traditional.
And it's fully funded and independent from the company. Backed by Vanguard which is solid. I'm not one bit worried about my retirement.
Wouldn't it be great if common sense was common in the workplaces of the United States of America?
Not common sense in a communistic way but real common sense that looks at the perspective from both sides of the table and appreciates what the other has to say.
On one hand you have places of employment such as walmart distribution center or waste management garbage collection.Jobs that need to be done safely,efficiently and carefully to avoid worker injuries and also keep the profit margin as big as possible.Which do you think the employer cares about more?
Then you have places like Union run construction companies and govt.contracts where the cost is of little importance and workers feel more entitled to their jobs.The over costs tend to be a lot and benefits packages are huge which only creates inflated wages and contracts because the workers are so entitled to all of the bs they can actually lose focus on what they are supposed to do with over regulations.
Obviously common sense is not so common in the average American corporate union or right wing workplace and ironically these are the companies that keep the economy going.There sure seems to be loads of gimme more, you owe me,take another number,Is it lunchtime/snacktime, Stand around, Don't try to learn anything,who cares,Who you know, I am too good for this type of attitudes though.
No offense to any hard workers out there.
Considering that the goal of private employers is to screw over the employees as much as possible, it's not surprising that employees feel the same way.
Why do you think unions were necessary in the first place?
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