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Old 06-02-2013, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,391 posts, read 20,039,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis View Post
Frankly, although it is patently obvious that people don't choose their gender preferences (did you have to struggle deciding to be heterosexual or homosexual?) WHO CARES?

It doesn't--nor should it--matter one iota whether a person is predisposed for whatever reason to be homosexual or they simply "choose" to be that way (a baseless and ridiculous assertion at any rate.)

Even in that scenario, it would be their choice. It hurts nobody else. It impacts nobody else. It's nobody else's business, and there would still be no cause whatsoever to discriminate against them or be bigoted towards them.

In other words, regardless of the underlying reason(s) for a person to be a homosexual, the only reasons to be bothered by it or endorse discriminating against them are based solely on fear, ignorance, hatred, bigotry, or some combination of those things.

"Their choice" is not an immutable characteristic like race or gender such that they would have civil rights based on it.

 
Old 06-02-2013, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,395 posts, read 3,723,364 times
Reputation: 7795
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Without homosexual thoughts and/or voluntary homosexual behavior, what would define a person as homosexual?

If nothing else besides thoughts and voluntary behavior define a person as homosexual, isn't homosexuality, by definition, voluntary?






Discuss.
Homosexual thoughts are not voluntary, any more than heterosexual thoughts are voluntary. Homosexual behavior is voluntary, but only in the same sense heterosexual behavior is voluntary. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals can abstain from sex. However, they usually can only do so at a very high psychological and emotional cost.

Your formulation fails.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,391 posts, read 20,039,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
Attractions are what define orientation. That's been explained to you countless times, you just refuse to accept it.

Attraction doesn't involve thought?
 
Old 06-02-2013, 09:02 AM
 
Location: McKinleyville, California
6,413 posts, read 9,106,598 times
Reputation: 4220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arus View Post
the only post you made was about puberty. that is not when you chose. that is when you realized you were straight. You didn't consciously choose to be straight

It only shows the rest of us that you do not know what choice is.

Prove to us that homosexuality is a choice. YOU didn't choose to be straight despite your delusions that you think you did.

I surely never chose to be straight. And I knew that I was attracted to boys when I was 3 years old; and a huge attraction to boys/males by the time I was in 2nd grade.

Just as My good friend didn't choose to be gay, but CHOSE to live a straight life, which caused nothing but grief and depression in his life, until he felt comfortable to "come out" to rest of his Catholic observing family, knowing that by doing so would alienate him beceause OF THEIR religious beliefs concerning gays. IT surprised him at how supportive they were of him . He has now celebrated his 10th wedding anniversary to his partner of 14 years.
I came out to my family, the ones I grew up with when I was 18, they all accepted me with open arms and a lack of judging. I found my real dad and a brother and 4 sisters in 1994. I did not come out to them until 2011 and feared that they would castigate me, hate me, disown me even, but I took the chance. They welcomed me wholeheartedly and said they love me for being their older brother and for being honest with them. If anything I was shocked that they accepted me and did not judge me. They all live in Oklahoma, I really expected to be ostracized and hated by them, but took the chance and told my neice, she took it upon herself to tell her dad and my four sisters. It almost made me cry when they said they loved me and did not judge me. They even aknowledge my 34 year relationship with my partner. I told my 83 year old aunt last fall and she said that she totally accepted me for the person I am. She also said she avoids the three evils; she does not smoke, does not drink and does not go to church.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,391 posts, read 20,039,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DauntlessDan View Post
Having thoughts and instead of dismissing such thoughts, intensifying those thoughts by watching/listening to/reading things that intensify those thoughts further to the point where one wants to act on those thoughts....whew....this can be a deep thread. When a thought pops into our head, do we entertain and instensify/reinforce it in order to act on it or do we avoid/dismiss it. That, I think is the choice....follow through or dismss. Analysing it may lead us in either direction.


Best answer so far DauntlessDan.

The human mind is capable of imagining just about anything, but after we first think of something, we then either choose to continue entertaining these thoughts or not as a matter of choice.

Your thoughtful input is much appreciated.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,391 posts, read 20,039,792 times
Reputation: 8320
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogersParkGuy View Post
Homosexual thoughts are not voluntary, any more than heterosexual thoughts are voluntary. Homosexual behavior is voluntary, but only in the same sense heterosexual behavior is voluntary. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals can abstain from sex. However, they usually can only do so at a very high psychological and emotional cost.

Your formulation fails.


Who said heterosexual thoughts are not voluntary?
 
Old 06-02-2013, 09:30 AM
 
15,723 posts, read 9,607,986 times
Reputation: 6988
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Attraction doesn't involve thought?
Not voluntary thoughts. We perceive people to be attractive based on involuntary reactions. We don't analyze them to decide if we will find them attractive or not. They either are or they aren't.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
20,326 posts, read 10,402,765 times
Reputation: 7957
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
That's great boiseguy!

Now define "orientation" apart from thought and behavior.
Attraction.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,395 posts, read 3,723,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Who said heterosexual thoughts are not voluntary?
Every heterosexual who has ever lived.

The only people who might genuinely be devoid of all involuntary sexual thoughts, heterosexual or homosexual, are people who are asexual. And they are a very small minority.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,391 posts, read 20,039,792 times
Reputation: 8320
Quote:
Originally Posted by DauntlessDan View Post
Having thoughts and instead of dismissing such thoughts, intensifying those thoughts by watching/listening to/reading things that intensify those thoughts further to the point where one wants to act on those thoughts....whew....this can be a deep thread. When a thought pops into our head, do we entertain and instensify/reinforce it in order to act on it or do we avoid/dismiss it. That, I think is the choice....follow through or dismss. Analysing it may lead us in either direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Who said heterosexual thoughts are not voluntary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogersParkGuy View Post
Every heterosexual who has ever lived.

The only people who might genuinely be devoid of all involuntary sexual thoughts, heterosexual or homosexual, are people who are asexual. And they are a very small minority.

So when a sexual thought pops into your head, do you always continue thinking about it until some other thought process even more involuntary that the first takes over, or do you choose to continue thinking about it or not, at your option?

What you are describing as involuntary sexual thoughts is the stuff of sit-coms and corny low-dollar B-movies.
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