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View Poll Results: Would you vote to end the Drug War?
Yes 102 80.31%
No 20 15.75%
Unsure 5 3.94%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-01-2013, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,857,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Holland is #4 and US was #15.
According to what source? I'm doing some research right now, and can't even find a list that INCLUDES The Netherlands (but a few do rank the US pretty high). Don't just repeat your claim, show us where you got that number - otherwise we're just discussing hypothetical statements.
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:57 PM
 
20,186 posts, read 16,398,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
In times past I would have unequivocally supported legalization of everything from mj to heroin. It's not the business of any nannyist do-gooder in DC what I choose to put in my body. Per John Locke's quote "Every man has a property in his own person" drug prohibition is fundamentally a violation of property rights, a theft.

Now as we move further down the road to socialized health care, I have rethought things. Now the taxpayer is increasingly on the hook for the health consequences of drug use. The whole drug rehab industry seems to be problematic to begin with. If we legalize, use will tend to increase. Now we'll have hordes of rent seekers coming into the picture to work the system as rehab/treatment providers. Medicare fraud has been estimated as high as 20% of outlays. It will be a mess. We'd be trading one mess for another.

I wouldn't support any legalization at this time. If you have a welfare state, you must have a nanny state to go with it.
You know you have to be 65 to get Medicare? You think if drugs were decriminalized, elderly people are going to start buying coke and needing drug rehab? Also, legal drugs are rapidly overtaking illegal drugs as addiction of choice, rehab centers are filled with those addicted to pain meds, etc that were actually prescribed for them. Not sure why so many think drug addiction is somehow the domain of the "welfare state"?

That's what I find so ironic, let's punish people who do drugs we disapprove of ("poor people" drugs like crack) by denying food stamps, etc, but the drugs the middle and upper class partake in with the full participation of their doctors, well, we all know they aren't really drugs, right? Heck, you can drive the neighborhood school bus if you get a note from your doctor saying he prescribed the Oxycontin you tested positive for in the drug test, but test positive for that joint you smoked last week? Forget it, you degenerate you!
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:57 PM
 
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
13,624 posts, read 11,013,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, you do. You just hailed opinion pieces from 'mayer of Seattle', while I provided you the official numbers from Portugal. The study was from 2009, and its intent was to show the effect of the legalization of drugs in Portugal. It shows cocaine use more than doubled, and they pretty much all drug use it up. I am very unimpressed with your 'research' skills, because you obviously believe whatever supports your personal opinions.

that's all you can produce is one old bogus link, if it was true you would be posting more links?? WHERE ARE THEY.!!!?? like I said before I see pages and pages of links that say Portugal's hard drug use and crime has dropped.. not to mention all the you tube vids..
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,857,023 times
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Here, I'll show you what else I've found so far...

This one (below) is from the UN itself, so you can't get much more reliable than that - and it ranks the US #3 in homicides, with Netherlands waaaaay below @ #23. Their murder rates are even lower than Finland and Belgium, for goodness sakes. We also have much higher rates for rape, and are just slightly closer (with US still ranking higher) for robbery. Hmmm.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crim...ecdjan2012.pdf
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Florida
62,424 posts, read 34,031,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
Also, legal drugs are rapidly overtaking illegal drugs as addiction of choice
You should take that as a warning against legalization. Of course people prefer to use legal drugs as opposed to illegal ones. If you legalize hard drugs, use will go through the roof like it did in Portugal.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,857,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruxan View Post
that's all you can produce is one old bogus link, if it was true you would be posting more links?? WHERE ARE THEY.!!!?? like I said before I see pages and pages of links that say Portugal's hard drug use and crime has dropped.. not to mention all the you tube vids..
Yeah, I'm waiting to see where he got that #4 statistic... in the time since I first asked, I've already managed to produce two very reliable & current sources contradicting his claims.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:04 PM
 
20,186 posts, read 16,398,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Holland ranks #4 in "Total crime victims". If you live there, there is a pretty good change you will become a victim of a crime.
The funny thing is, drug use is higher here than in Holland:The Netherlands Compared With The United States | Drug War Facts



(Drug Use and Crime Indicators - Comparison Between The US and The Netherlands)
Social Indicator Comparison Year USA Netherlands



Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use 2009 U.S 41.5% (ages 12 and up) vs. Holland 25.7% (ages 15-64)
2 Past year prevalence of marijuana use 2009 11.3% (ages 12 and up) vs. 7.0% (ages 15-64)2 Lifetime prevalence of heroin use 2009 1.5% (ages 12 and up) vs. 0.5% (ages 15-64)2 Incarceration Rate per 100,000 population 2009 (US) / 2010 (Netherlands) 743 3 94 3 Per capita spending on criminal justice system (in Euros) 1998 €379 vs €223
Homicide rate per 100,000 population 2009 5.06 vs 1.16




- See more at: The Netherlands Compared With The United States | Drug War Facts
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,857,023 times
Reputation: 20391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You should take that as a warning against legalization. Of course people prefer to use legal drugs as opposed to illegal ones. If you legalize hard drugs, use will go through the roof like it did in Portugal.
Please stop lying... you've been proven wrong on that last statement, over and over and over again. Do you think we're stupid??

P.S. The majority of Rx addicts seem to get their drugs illegally - either by stealing them, faking medical conditions, "doctor hopping," or whatever. If they did it like we do legal pot here in California, there would be no reason to go through hoops to get it.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:05 PM
 
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
13,624 posts, read 11,013,862 times
Reputation: 19969
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
You know you have to be 65 to get Medicare? You think if drugs were decriminalized, elderly people are going to start buying coke and needing drug rehab? Also, legal drugs are rapidly overtaking illegal drugs as addiction of choice, rehab centers are filled with those addicted to pain meds, etc that were actually prescribed for them. Not sure why so many think drug addiction is somehow the domain of the "welfare state"?

That's what I find so ironic, let's punish people who do drugs we disapprove of ("poor people" drugs like crack) by denying food stamps, etc, but the drugs the middle and upper class partake in with the full participation of their doctors, well, we all know they aren't really drugs, right? Heck, you can drive the neighborhood school bus if you get a note from your doctor saying he prescribed the Oxycontin you tested positive for in the drug test, but test positive for that joint you smoked last week? Forget it, you degenerate you!
once the pharmaceuticals put a drug in a pill everything is ok its not a drug anymore

more people are addicted to big pharma drugs than illegal drugs. but you never here the weed haters bitching about that. they are more worried about the ant hill then the tiger standing over it
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Western Oregon
472 posts, read 478,679 times
Reputation: 374
Tough one ... I'm all for legalizing marijuana, but other drugs, hmmm.

Taliban makes a lot from opium, so if that becomes cheap, they lose a lot of $. Or so it was a few years ago, not so sure about the status now. Other crime organizations, same thing. I'd be happy to make them go broke.
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