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And I respect that, but the difference we're talking about is the difference between an effective movement and an ineffective movement.
It hasn't been ineffective. We're talking about it nearly 3 years after the fact. The issues are STILL being discussed. Things take time. Everything doesn't happen overnight.
Better for whom? Better why? (And you answered these questions by saying...)
You don't want to reveal the whole plan until its time to roll. There have been tons of marches supporting specific causes. Some with their own protester base. Occupy is simply a banner to unite.
A movement that is governed by what will keep it closer to Teflon isn't going to get much accomplished.
It was in reference to your statement, "That way the Movement is harder to defend against when things do kick off." You acknowledged that the approach taken is to make the movement harder to defend against, rather than to make the movement easier and more attractive to support.
Occupy's biggest problem is that it refused to be held to account for itself. That allowed the critics of its implicit intent to undercut all manner of related issues, tying those criticisms back to the scurrilous and wasteful nature of Occupy's tactics, while stirring up not principled advocacy for anything really important, but rather simply giving a lot of irrationally frustrated people a warped sense of what they were protesting for/against.
The constructive path forward would necessarily involve being definitive. The American colonies produced a Declaration of Independence. They did that for a reason, a reason that "leaders" (and I use the word loosely) of Occupy utterly missed.
Occupy obviously had an impact. There's been lots on here who've recognized the issues that were brought up were legit.
There's only about 3 posters (yourself, PghQuest, and KS Refereee) who have typed about 90% of the opposition post in this thread.
Not an "Occupy expert",...but 'ol ted wrote that little passage. So maybe you lunkheads should get together and try to present a united front on exactly WHO you are protesting. That was the downfall of the movement anyway, OWS was movement without a direction, akin to a dog chasing its own tail.
OWS had a lot of public support until its true nature was revealed. Now, instead of thousands protesting, there are most times fewer than a hundred and OWS' credibility is close to ZERO with the public.
The three posters you named are opposed to OWS on sound footings. We have little sympathy for those who refuse to take personal responsibility for their own actions/choices,...and we resist placing more power in the hands of the federal government. OWS is no better than the corporate entities they protested in the beginning,....they want freebies like free education, healthcare, forgiveness of debt,.etc.,...etc....
OWS is long on ideas and short on solutions. When you whiners formulate some solutions get back to us. We are only using the same free speech that OWS has used in the past,...but, you OWS sympathizers would have us silenced in a nanosecond if you had the means.
I'm not posting any of my good ideas on the internet for someone to steal. I'm not that stupid. Maybe there's reasons why YOU don't know what's going on with the movement or what its about.
I honestly don't care. The supporters in this thread have stated their opinions. As well as the opposition. There's nothing that can be said to get some of you off your couches and out into the street. It's fine. We don't need everyone.
It's not a straw-man. Wall Street is blind to where profit comes from-so long as it's there. It is perceived profit-profit on paper while destroying society. Crony corporate prison contracts, the well documented military industrial complex, Federal Reserve favoritism with their self-deemed "Too Big To Fail" Banks. War, Bailouts, Prison State-it's all connected. Our Federal Government colludes with multi-national corporations to create monopolies and Wall St perpetuates it.
It is unhealthy for our society and our country and you are blind to it too because it profits you personally.
And yet you continue to dodge the question of how greatly the middle class has benefited from all of this! The middle class works less today than ever before, spends more on entertainment, less on food and housing, and has a substantially higher quality of life. EVERYONE has benefited from this system. You have profited from all of this personally as well. Were you this adamant against the system when it gave you double digit returns for several decades, or are you only against it in the tail ends of the risk curve?
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Originally Posted by Gtownoe
I'm glad that you cleared things up because it gives you even less credibility.
The numbers are probably more in line with what I was thinking.
Adjust for inflation prices from the past, to prices now.
I am starting to worry about your math skills. Nothing about what you said is true, as I have proven to you in multiple threads.
Quote:
Your missing the point.
Have you ever worked outside of the Finance industry? Do you believe EVERYBODY can work in the Finance industry?
Yes...I got my start as a computer programmer in the manufacturing sector. I was also a bus boy/waiter to work my way through high school and college. The same holds true for that job. Anyone who is willing to put in extra work and bust their asses can create a job for themselves in corporate america.
Quote:
You keep relating your personal situation to that of the Macro Economic situation.
I gave a single example of my personal situation after you point-blank refused to address the reality of the macro issues I presented. Gtownoe, your problem is that you are somewhat ignorant of history. You are young, and seem to have not studied the macro environment over the last 50 years. You cannot blindly look at where we are today and make a statement, when the trend over the last 50 years tells a completely different story.
Quote:
People can not afford to pay their bills. Not a small portion, a large portion of the working population. If everybody were doctors who'd cook our food? If we're all CEO's where are our employees coming from? If we're all cooks, who's gonna serve the food??
Your not grasping the Macro situation. Maybe that's why you keep relating it back to personal situations.
Again - i referred to my situation a single time, and that was after you ignored what I posted about the macro level environment in which we live. You keep ignoring historical cycles, which might be why you fail to understand what is actually going on. Please study up on the history of fiscal and economic conditions in this country and you might start to understand.
People could afford to pay their bills if they lived what was a middle class lifestyle 40-50 years ago. That is a major point I am making, and it is one you don't understand due to a lack of knowledge of history. Everyone won't be doctors. The economy is not a zero sum game. You don't seem to grasp how a basic economic system works.
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Originally Posted by ellemint
How many of the new hires in Wall St firms are graduates from Ivy League colleges? I only know three people who worked on Wall St. --- one went to Harvard, one went to Florida Atlantic University, and one was a high-school graduate taking IT courses, but they said that a lot of the new hires were from Ivy League colleges.
The problem is finding a firm that will sponsor you for series 7. Unless you're fresh out of college, that's hard to do.
Right out of college? A decent chunk come from ivies. The vast majority of people with 2-3 years experience are NOT from top ranked schools. Most get any job in any bank for any pay, work for a few years, switch to an administrative role in a better firm, get licensed, then move to a higher paying job. There are multiple paths to take, but all of them require the person to spend time at nights and on weekends studying and educating him/herself.
Education is the key to all of this. People who go out of their way to study up and hone new skills in their free time nearly always make something of themselves.
Real alternatives or solutions to what? Riots in the street? Rape tents, to immature ignorant "hand me" attitudes that people think their owed something that doesnt belong to them? YOU are the one supporting this crap, so why dont you put your money where your mouth is and PAY these people out of YOUR pocket..
That makes a lot of sense, NOT.. considering I've been objecting to government handouts since day one
Your critical thinking skills needs lots of work..
You're very difficult to read. Please come up with some new talking points.
I'm not posting any of my good ideas on the internet for someone to steal. I'm not that stupid. Maybe there's reasons why YOU don't know what's going on with the movement or what its about.
I honestly don't care. The supporters in this thread have stated their opinions. As well as the opposition. There's nothing that can be said to get some of you off your couches and out into the street. It's fine. We don't need everyone.
Yes, please dont share with us how you plan to make the next OWS protest a huge success.. Keeping secrets is the best way to get people to show up..
And yet you continue to dodge the question of how greatly the middle class has benefited from all of this! The middle class works less today than ever before, spends more on entertainment, less on food and housing, and has a substantially higher quality of life. EVERYONE has benefited from this system. You have profited from all of this personally as well. Were you this adamant against the system when it gave you double digit returns for several decades, or are you only against it in the tail ends of the risk curve?
You really believe that everyone profits from this system? If that's what you truly believe than I don't even think we should continue the conversation. I mean, seriously? We are at constant War and have the highest incarceration rate in the World. Look at the statistics! There is hardly any middle-class anymore. Sheesh, the bubbles people will build for themselves.
Also, I do not and will not invest in the stock market, thank you very much. I invest in real estate. Do you really feel that this is a sustainable system?
You're very difficult to read. Please come up with some new talking points.
Since when is objecting to government handouts, a talking point? I thought thats what the OWS movement was all about? Here I am reaching out an olive branch to something we'd have in common, and you dont want to hear it because you're so blinded by hate..
And yet you continue to dodge the question of how greatly the middle class has benefited from all of this! The middle class works less today than ever before, spends more on entertainment, less on food and housing, and has a substantially higher quality of life. EVERYONE has benefited from this system. You have profited from all of this personally as well. Were you this adamant against the system when it gave you double digit returns for several decades, or are you only against it in the tail ends of the risk curve?
I am starting to worry about your math skills. Nothing about what you said is true, as I have proven to you in multiple threads.
Yes...I got my start as a computer programmer in the manufacturing sector. The same holds true for that job. Anyone who is willing to put in extra work and bust their asses can create a job for themselves in corporate america.
I gave a single example of my personal situation after you point-blank refused to address the reality of the macro issues I presented. Gtownoe, your problem is that you are somewhat ignorant of history. You are young, and seem to have not studied the macro environment over the last 50 years. You cannot blindly look at where we are today and make a statement, when the trend over the last 50 years tells a completely different story.
We are the same age. I was a Finance major and studied Macro Economics. Why do you keep bringing up the situation 50 years ago? What do they have to do with our current economic situation??
Do you think that because people live in bigger houses their quality of living is improved? Are you trying to say that people should be happy because we have more "things?" Is that what your saying??
Again - i referred to my situation a single time, and that was after you ignored what I posted about the macro level environment in which we live. You keep ignoring historical cycles, which might be why you fail to understand what is actually going on. Please study up on the history of fiscal and economic conditions in this country and you might start to understand.
No, you just posted something completely irrelevant to our current situation. See above in the bold. When you clarify yourself you'll see what I'm talking about.
People could afford to pay their bills if they lived what was a middle class lifestyle 40-50 years ago. That is a major point I am making, and it is one you don't understand due to a lack of knowledge of history. Everyone won't be doctors. The economy is not a zero sum game. You don't seem to grasp how a basic economic system works.
Again. What are you talking about? What does any of that have to do with our current Economy? The Economy is a lot different then it was during those times. Our country is a lot different then it was during those time.
How do you plan on getting the Economy strong enough to support our CURRENT population and conditions? If you think things are ok now then there's no point in discussing things any further.
I'm looking at ways to improve the Economy and the general well being of our population.
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