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Old 11-06-2007, 11:37 AM
 
2,770 posts, read 5,363,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
Looks like I’ll have to contribute more money when a concerned citizen and parent sues the school for violation of the Establishment Clause. Take the religious issues of faith back where they belong, in home of church. Whiny people who feel they need to push their faith on children really tell me they have such weak belief in their own god they need to force it on to the public.
It's the same kind of whiny people who feel that some religious poster in a school will completely undermine a parent's raising of a child. They'll accept posters in a school for the military, junk-food, etc., but scream in protest at the sight of a cross, or a poster. As if some preacher is standing at the front door handing out bibles and communion wafers

That tells me that the parents not only have zero faith in their parenting skills, but makes it seem they view Christianity as some sort of evil belief out to change their child for the worse
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:40 AM
 
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The problem is people here (the same types who think "school prayer" has some sort of redeeming value) would NEVER EVER allow the Seven pillars of Islam to be put up in a classroom in a non-educational context.

What about Muslim parents who believe there should be a little more "allah" in the classroom?
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:40 AM
 
2,770 posts, read 5,363,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
I lived in Southern California for many years near Bakersfield and am very familiar with Jacquie Sullivan and her methods and ideals. She’s been pushing religion and prayer into schools and city councils. That’s the end goal for her. This is just a stepping stone for her to get her brand of christianity into the schools. I’m not looking at this in a vacuum, I’ve seen her history of attempts and fights.

It isnt prayer but it tries to wedge a belief system to children that this nation is “founded” on religion and if they don’t go towards the authority’s preferred brand, then they are outsiders. How do kids feel being outsiders?

Not the same as any othe kind of advertisement, that’s not even a close comparison.
And honestly I don't agree with her methods. Christianity is ultimately about choice
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,166,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66nexus View Post
It's the same kind of whiny people who feel that some religious poster in a school will completely undermine a parent's raising of a child. They'll accept posters in a school for the military, junk-food, etc., but scream in protest at the sight of a cross, or a poster.
Well many religious people feel evolution “challenges and undermines” their belief systems, and evolution is not a religion. But a blantant religious symbol or language preferring a religion does undermine a parent’s ability to direct their children to a path the parent wants to direct their children. Schools are not to present a belief that is “preferred”. How would you feel if the school decided to display the koran in your childrens school. Would you feel ok with it, since after all it is the same god as the christian god?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 66nexus View Post
As if some preacher is standing at the front door handing out bibles and communion wafers
No, they want it to be not so obvious so they feel they can get away with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 66nexus View Post
That tells me that the parents not only have zero faith in their parenting skills, but makes it seem they view Christianity as some sort of evil belief out to change their child for the worse
\\

Well thousands if not millions of christian fundalmentalists started somewhere and seem to be growing.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,166,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66nexus View Post
And honestly I don't agree with her methods. Christianity is ultimately about choice
Well her intentions are not about choice. Unless it is her choice of religion. This isnt about patriotism or history, it's about her trying to get god into schools and government buildings and using all forms of government authority to push and support her beliefs.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:03 PM
 
2,770 posts, read 5,363,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
Well many religious people feel evolution “challenges and undermines” their belief systems, and evolution is not a religion. But a blantant religious symbol or language preferring a religion does undermine a parent’s ability to direct their children to a path the parent wants to direct their children. Schools are not to present a belief that is “preferred”. How would you feel if the school decided to display the koran in your childrens school. Would you feel ok with it, since after all it is the same god as the christian god?
Honestly, (and even flame me for it) I do not really think I'd be bent out of shape if they displayed a Qur'an in my child's classroom (even though that's much more specific than a wall-poster)

This country is, without question, much more accepting of Christianity than it is of Islam, especially since our war on terror is mostly against radical Islamists (you probably won't see a Qur'an in a hotel room drawer).

If there was someone trying to push Muslim ideals into my child's school/council, etc. then I would have a problem with it. But as I said, I do not agree with Ms. Sullivan's methods

Now, with that said, if my son came up to me with the interest in a religion that preaches violence then I'd have an issue.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:08 PM
 
1,408 posts, read 4,457,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
the establishment clause prohibits this type of mandating of the Christian religion.
No, actually the Establishment clause prohibits Congress from sanctioning or funding a federal church entity (i.e., a state-run denomination like the Church of England).

That is all the Establishment clause forbids.

At the time it was adopted and for some decades afterward, several particular states still had stated-sponsored religious denominations. Massachusetts provided state support to the Congregational Church until 1833.

On local issues like schools, individual or corporate prayers, Bible reading, etc. the U.S. Constitution is silent.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,521 posts, read 20,930,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
So opening invocations by different individuals of different faiths to a government body of adults of many different faiths who can choose to attend the prayer session or not is the same as putting in issues of faith to impressionable young children under the direction of school authority, you consider those to be the same?
No, it's not the same. But it's hypocritical to argue that the government should deny religious content in our schools when its central organs (the Congress, the Supreme Court, and the Presidency) regularly cite religious inspiration in their ceremonies.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:16 PM
 
1,408 posts, read 4,457,603 times
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Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Well, somebody should've told the folks who actually wrote the Constitution, since the word "God" doesn't appear in it once.
Funny then, that they noted in the text itself "the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
The wonderful thing about America is that it has a secular government with a godless constitution.
Well...no, that would actually be France after their post-1789 bloodbath—er, "great compassionate humanitarian revolution" sorry...
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,521 posts, read 20,930,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LancasterNative View Post

Well...no, that would actually be France after their post-1789 bloodbath—er, "great compassionate humanitarian revolution" sorry...
You are so right. It seems nobody has ever got Revolution right except the good old U S of A.

We must be blessed.
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