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Old 11-11-2007, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,490,329 times
Reputation: 8778

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LancasterNative View Post
"Sharing" it at home sounds OK. But my preference would be keeping it at home, i.e. not having the gov't take it from us in the first place!

Cutting taxes and balancing the budget would force the bureaucrats to live within their means. About freakin' time too, considering they work for us!
To me, the deadly things that Bush did that his opponents probably would not have done were the diminution of our freedoms in this country and the peeing away of the balanced budget that he inherited from the Democrats. A 'curse-our-children-with-indebtedness and spend' Republican.

Any time a President runs up the national debt he is actually increasing taxes, but if he doesn't raise them in the present to pay those bills, he is leaving it for a future President to do. We should all demand that any President balance the budget, but we have learned that we can no longer rely on Congress to act as a sane check on Presidential whims, because they just caved and rubber stamped his needless war. They would probably do the same for budget overruns.

Before him, Clinton cut the federal welfare roles in half, which I applauded, but then Bush got in and used that savings to kill people in this nightmare war of his.

I think Gore would have been a good president because he could have tossed his hat in this go-around and he did not. The people who really want it are usually the ones who have sold their souls to mega business interests - which means that they cannot be trusted. Gore, obviously, does not like all the bs you have to preach in order to get elected. I reallly think he is an honest, decent person, and that is probably not what today's politics requires.

This war was started under false pretenses and has gotten nothing but evil for the US, both economically and in terms of international goodwill. Not only are we hated, and understandibly so, all over the world, but we will be paying for it for generations to come, crippling the economic growth that we will so sorely need in the future.

The environment is the biggest crisis to face this country and the world. The number of deaths in its wake will pale those of 911 and even of this war. I would have whomever gets elected dedicate a goodly portion of our tax dollars to alternate fuel research - non-polluting and non-radioactive waste fuel.

I would not go nuclear until they solve the problem of waste disposal - and there are those who are working on that problem right now. If we allow for more nuclear plants they will pull that research money into other projects - a typical government reaction.

 
Old 11-11-2007, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,521 posts, read 20,916,552 times
Reputation: 13858
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
To me, the deadly things that Bush did that his opponents probably would not have done were the diminution of our freedoms in this country .
Please describe how your freedoms have been diminished by the President.
 
Old 11-11-2007, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Gilbert, AZ
788 posts, read 1,903,591 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancasterNative View Post
If Liberals didn't insist on funding all the worthless, unconstitutional "entitlements" and Socialist giveaway programs, then we could save those trillions of dollars and be debt-free
As opposed to paying trillions to private contractors in a foreign country? I'd rather that money be spent here. In fact, we could spend a lot less money, be much better off while reducing the debt.
 
Old 11-11-2007, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Gilbert, AZ
788 posts, read 1,903,591 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Please describe how your freedoms have been diminished by the President.
The Patriot Act (as if diminishing liberty is patriotic), wire tapping without a warrant, the FBI being allowed to detain people without a warrant, and those people not being able to talk about it afterwards, "free speech zones", etc....
 
Old 11-11-2007, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,521 posts, read 20,916,552 times
Reputation: 13858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artliquide View Post
The Patriot Act (as if diminishing liberty is patriotic), wire tapping without a warrant, the FBI being allowed to detain people without a warrant, and those people not being able to talk about it afterwards, "free speech zones", etc....
And you have experienced these atrocities personally?

Or have you just read crtiticisms of them in the left-wing press?

Do you know how many library records have been requested as a reult of the Patriot Act (which was re-instated with broad bipartisan support)?

Have you had your wires tapped?

Have you been detained without a warrant, and told not to talk about it (oh that's right, you can't talk about it)?

Or are you simply repeating things you've heard about, with no actual knowledge of them, or any concept of why leaders from both parties believe that heightened security is necessary to protect the country from a stateless, criminal enemy?

In the absence of any credible evidence from you to the contrary, I must assume the latter.
 
Old 11-11-2007, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Gilbert, AZ
788 posts, read 1,903,591 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
And you have experienced these atrocities personally?

Or have you just read crtiticisms of them in the left-wing press?

Do you know how many library records have been requested as a reult of the Patriot Act (which was re-instated with broad bipartisan support)?

Have you had your wires tapped?

Have you been detained without a warrant, and told not to talk about it (oh that's right, you can't talk about it)?

Or are you simply repeating things you've heard about, with no actual knowledge of them, or any concept of why leaders from both parties believe that heightened security is necessary to protect the country from a stateless, criminal enemy?

In the absence of any credible evidence from you to the contrary, I must assume the latter.
Actually, I did have a newsletter from my high school marching band "inspected" about a week after I checked out some books at the library about the Trilateral Commission and the Illuminati (I'm insatiably curious). Why would they inspect my mail? I'm not a suspicious person that I'm aware of, other than being interested in many sides of many issues. That's my personal example.

How about the Patriot Act itself? Whether or not things like this actually happen (they do if you believe what you read on the net), the fact that it can happen, legally, worries some people who believe that citizens should have the right to privacy, as long as it's unwarranted.
 
Old 11-11-2007, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,521 posts, read 20,916,552 times
Reputation: 13858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artliquide View Post
Actually, I did have a newsletter from my high school marching band "inspected" about a week after I checked out some books at the library about the Trilateral Commission and the Illuminati (I'm insatiably curious). Why would they inspect my mail? .
Who are "they"?
 
Old 11-11-2007, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
5,152 posts, read 7,224,507 times
Reputation: 3514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post



Have you had your wires tapped?
Is there a way to tell if your phone lines have been tapped? Just curious.
 
Old 11-11-2007, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,189 posts, read 24,919,242 times
Reputation: 3840
I had my phone tapped once, and I did know: it had a click when I picked up the phone that differed from any other I'd heard. It was subtle but clearly an oddity. It was a work-related phone, and I had the university check it and they discovered the who of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerlily View Post
Is there a way to tell if your phone lines have been tapped? Just curious.
 
Old 11-11-2007, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,490,329 times
Reputation: 8778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Please describe how your freedoms have been diminished by the President.
Please follow the news. Read about the Patriot Act and the battles against it. About pressuring industry to eavesdrop on private citizens without provocation. Pressuring local libraries to divulge reading materials of private citizens, again without evidence of any wrongdoing - with the threat of actual punishment to the individual librarian if he/she even notifies the superior that the request was made of them. Much of this has been fought against by patriots in the government and there is much written about it. I don't want to put you in the embarrassing position to be defending holding people without trial, torture, rendition. I am not disposed to itemize each and every infraction. If you are interested, research. If you are not, I am not here to fight with anyone.

You know that famous quote about 'them' coming for one group, and I was not a member of that group and said nothing; and then they came for the next group, and I was not a member of that group so said nothing; and when they came for me there were none left to protest my being taken. An infringement against the liberty of one is an infringement done upon all of us.

Liberty is not upheld we defending those with whom we agree(governments of dictatorships are usually filled with that type), but that we all defend the rights of those with whom we disagree as well. Injustice for one is injustice for all.

Under the facade of this idiot war many of our liberties have been eroded. This, by the man who said, when becoming President, that he would prefer being dictator. I believed that he was sincere when he said that. Pity that was not also a warning to others.

I think, to such minds as are in the White House now, 911 was a convenient excuse for them to try and dump some of the checks on overpowering government, and especially of the Presidency. I think the result of this war is the increased hatred of people from all over the world and profits for certain industries, all at the expense of the American citizen, who will be living with and paying for the fallout from this fiasco decades after these creeps leave office.

I think there are two sides to every story and that those idiots who would suicide bomb so readily have had their minds twisted by a fringe interpretation of their religion - but they also believe that they are in a totally intolerable situation, so bad that they are willing to believe that bs their leaders are telling them, so bad that they will die for their beliefs. I have lived long enough to know that there usually are two sides to situations that people feel so strongly about. I think our government is acting like bullies, similar to them, when we react with violence instead of negotiations. We are now on their playing field and have proven ourselves to be as low as they. Repulsive.

Last edited by goldengrain; 11-11-2007 at 06:04 PM..
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