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Old 01-23-2014, 12:48 AM
 
13,277 posts, read 7,804,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
What nation?
He's a Global Hero.

He has a coalition of the listening.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:53 AM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,848 posts, read 21,376,619 times
Reputation: 9263
Quote:
Originally Posted by American Heathen View Post
Exactly. Not surprised all the fox newsies are cheering for his death or capture...guess they enjoy being spied on...
I am not a fox newsy but i do not agree with what Snowden is doing.

However he is an American citizen and he does not deserve death and i hope an American spy wouldn't kill a fellow American.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,231,537 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
My private life isn't exposed to the government.
Really? You believe that...?

It's only metadata right? That's the governments literal admission.

Ok so if that's the case, discuss with your wife/husband the following metadata.

Today you called a girl/guy named Suzi/Steve seven times (or some other name your wife/husband won't know), shortest call length was 1 minute, longest was 45 minutes, average length was 7 minutes.

Suzi/Steve then called a Hotel in Vegas and booked a double room for two nights, flight manifests show you're on a flight to Vegas the day of the booking and a flight back two days later, and you have no hotel reservation.

Now I don't know what really is going on there, but I can hazard a decent guess.

Would you say that the above exposes someone's private life to the government?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Every action is not under constant surveillance, they don't have the time to spy on every single American.
They don't need to have you under constant supervision, they're dragnetting your data, they can go back later if they get the urge that you're a POI, and dig into all your dirty little secrets, like your City-Data posting history, your browsing history, who you called when and for how long, and what those you called phoned subsequently, if it's a business I can call them for their records, on that person who called to maybe see what they bought (if they didn't use cash) they already know how much they spent because I'd be looking at their credit card transaction statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
This was not done secretly,
articles from 2005... don't remember a huge outrage back then.
CNN.com - House approves renewal of Patriot Act - Jul 22, 2005

CNN.com - Bush*says he signed NSA wiretap order - Dec 17, 2005
You may not remember huge outrage, but there was some pretty heavy resistance.

Patriot act permitted surveillance of terror suspects under active investigation without warrant, or with a warrant issued under FISA. It did not permit collection and surveillance of bulk data from anyone within 3 hops of the suspect (which amounts to more than the global population given the reported number of suspects under active investigation by the NSA).

Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Of course, we knew about this the week he released all this information.
Which he could not have done in the US, because the information would have been suppressed, and if released he either would be hiding out with Jimmy Hoffa, or he'd be imprisoned and discredited. What I found funny though with Snowden is that the US Intelligence and Diplomatic did so many things to enhance Snowden's credibility I'm not entirely convinced of it's accuracy. If you let yourself get caught for little things, then when you do something really big, people might not suspect you.

If you're wondering about how they enhanced his credibility, well if someone has no information an is just a crank, you don't publicly insult China, or tell Russia that any safety they provide would be a grievous mistake. Either our intel and diplo services are clueless, or they think everyone else is.

Now as for Snowden being in Russia, and Hong Kong, well when you're pointing out that the US government is spying on everyone from iNviNciBL3 to Angela Merkel, if you go anywhere that is either friendly to the US or can be coerced, then you might as well have stayed in the US. There are far worse options than Russia or China he could have bartered information for safety to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Again, we are not.
Sure you are, you just either don't want to admit it, or don't comprehend what technology is doing for(?) us.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:20 AM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,848 posts, read 21,376,619 times
Reputation: 9263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Really? You believe that...?

It's only metadata right? That's the governments literal admission.

Ok so if that's the case, discuss with your wife/husband the following metadata.

Today you called a girl/guy named Suzi/Steve seven times (or some other name your wife/husband won't know), shortest call length was 1 minute, longest was 45 minutes, average length was 7 minutes.

Suzi/Steve then called a Hotel in Vegas and booked a double room for two nights, flight manifests show you're on a flight to Vegas the day of the booking and a flight back two days later, and you have no hotel reservation.

Now I don't know what really is going on there, but I can hazard a decent guess.

Would you say that the above exposes someone's private life to the government?
This is not private, and they need a warrant to tap into a domestic phone call.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
They don't need to have you under constant supervision, they're dragnetting your data, they can go back later if they get the urge that you're a POI, and dig into all your dirty little secrets, like your City-Data posting history, your browsing history, who you called when and for how long, and what those you called phoned subsequently, if it's a business I can call them for their records, on that person who called to maybe see what they bought (if they didn't use cash) they already know how much they spent because I'd be looking at their credit card transaction statement.
I am well aware the World Wide Web is not such a private place, people all over the world can read my post. and i have nothing to hide on here, international phone calls i make are to family just chatting, my browsing history is basically: C-D forums, YouTube, Facebook and i am not a terrorist so i am not worried

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Sure you are, you just either don't want to admit it, or don't comprehend what technology is doing for(?) us.
I know my info is out there and i know the NSA, CIA whoever isnt interested in it because i don't do anything wrong....
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,231,537 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
This is not private, and they need a warrant to tap into a domestic phone call.
Oh no they don't... Only to hear voice, none of what I posted is related to any voice content.

Cellular metadata can be pulled via a National Security letter... I doubt very much that land-lines are much different, since they're wire to VoIP, might be a private network, but data is data.

Verizon providing all call records to U.S. under court order - The Washington Post

Verizon Says It Received Over 1,000 National Security Letters In 2013 - WSJ.com

That's not FISA requests (where foreigners are targeted) which are gagged.

And it's just Verizon, given that if you're talking cross network (Verizon to AT&T, or T-Mobile to Sprint) they only need one end to see who the other end is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
I am well aware the World Wide Web is not such a private place, people all over the world can read my post. and i have nothing to hide on here, international phone calls i make are to family just chatting, my browsing history is basically: C-D forums, YouTube, Facebook and i am not a terrorist so i am not worried
Ah, so the if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear...

So why did Clapper and Gen Alexander lie to congress? Lying would be to hide something, so what do they fear?

One question though, who does your international family chat to immediately before and following your calls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
I know my info is out there and i know the NSA, CIA whoever isnt interested in it because i don't do anything wrong....
ROFL...

Wrong...?
This isn't kindergarten.

If someone in your network of 10,000-20,000 contacts has done something to trigger alarm bells, you'll receive enhanced scrutiny, if there is something that looks out of place in your history you could be pulled in for questioning.

YOU did nothing wrong, but that won't stop you from enhanced scrutiny including actual physical surveillance and phone taps. All it needs is something that looks out of place, and you yourself could become a suspect, even if you're too clean, that could be enough. If they haul you in for questioning, then if you're lucky (and not informed you cannot mention this as it's confidential under National Security regulations) you can explain where you were to the people who expected you to be wherever you would have been during that time.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:26 AM
 
41,111 posts, read 25,561,995 times
Reputation: 13868
Quote:
Originally Posted by juppiter View Post
The US government was taking away soooo many freedoms that he had no choice but to run to the haven of democracy that is Russia.
Didn't he run to China first then to Russia. Countries he knew were not friendly to America and wouldn't easily turn him over to the U.S.? I don't know but just saying.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:29 AM
 
41,111 posts, read 25,561,995 times
Reputation: 13868
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
I am not a fox newsy but i do not agree with what Snowden is doing.

However he is an American citizen and he does not deserve death and i hope an American spy wouldn't kill a fellow American.
Not saying I agree with what he did but I'm thinking since he knows more than we do he felt that he didn't stand a chance in the U.S. as a whistle blower.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:48 AM
 
520 posts, read 594,437 times
Reputation: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
My private life isn't exposed to the government.



Every action is not under constant surveillance, they don't have the time to spy on every single American.



This was not done secretly,
articles from 2005... don't remember a huge outrage back then.
CNN.com - House approves renewal of Patriot Act - Jul 22, 2005

CNN.com - Bush*says he signed NSA wiretap order - Dec 17, 2005




Of course, we knew about this the week he released all this information.



Again, we are not.
Sorry, I'm having trouble breaking up your quotes properly, so please bear with me.

1. "My private life is not exposed to the government" - sounds like you know something categorically. I would argue that you don't know. It's one of Rumsfeld's unknown unknowns. Given the propensity of the NSA to lie with impunity - the least untruthful statement doesn't inspire a lot of trust in me - I would bet the government knows one heck of a lot more about you than you think. Maybe you don't care, but a lot of people do.

Unless you work for the NSA, I would venture to guess that you have no idea how much surveillance is actually taking place, and how powerful the post processing capabilities are to zero in on anything they want. And if you do work for the NSA, you wouldn't be posting here on this subject.

2. The Patriot Act DID cause a lot of outrage - maybe not from you. But the government didn't care. We were advised to trade our privacy for security, and lots of people willingly did.

Bottom line - anybody who thinks they have any privacy left better think again. If we already knew everything that Snowden exposed, then why is everybody so up in arms about him? I'm just amazed that people really think nobody is watching.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:03 AM
 
13,679 posts, read 5,443,865 times
Reputation: 8399
He signed and then violated a security clearance agreement. Regardless of his sense of right/wrong and duty to the people, he voluntarily agreed to abide by certain rules, he signed his agreement, and then violated that agreement. He should be charged with whatever crime the government has for violating the terms of a security agreement, all of which are likely listed in the agreement itself to warn folks who sign what will happen if they violate it, and that's that.

Do I applaud what he did? Sure. I like the government getting kicked in the balls. Do I think what he did was legal, or that he should skate? Heck no. A law that goes unenforced because of popular whim, cult of personality or other court of public opinion notions is not a law, it is a suggestion. If any law becomes a suggestion, then the entire rule of law is invalid and becomes the whim of whichever tyrant is currently holding the scepter and crown.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:05 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,132,182 times
Reputation: 5239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
Sanity still reigns among the populace. Majorities from all parties and indies all agree that Snowden is a traitor and should face trial for his misdeeds. I think that P&OC is one of the few places where this scumball is still seen favorably.


Poll: Most think Edward Snowden should stand trial in U.S. - CBS News


why should he stand trial?
for bringing out the truth against an administration?
if he would have done this on the republicans watch, then you would be having the news screaming for his pardon.....I wonder why they have not been doing that now?
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