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Old 07-02-2013, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,404,380 times
Reputation: 6541

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
I don’t think this is a wining strategy. The Patriot Act is so tied to Bush and the GOP that disavowing it now, even if it embarrasses Obama in the short term, will open themselves up to charges of “flip-flopping.”

If the Republicans regain the White House they’ll be under tremendous pressure to maintain the programs. It would ultimately create more problems than it solves.
Only by the ignorant, or those attempting to revise history. The USAPATRIOT Act was enacted into law in 2001 by a Republican controlled House and a Democrat controlled Senate. Just like today. Both the majority of Republicans and the majority of Democrats voted for the USAPATRIOT Act. Which makes it a bipartisan law.

Furthermore, the most recent revisions to the USAPATRIOT Act were made in 2011 by a Republican controlled House and a Democrat controlled Senate. Additionally, there is nothing in the USAPATRIOT Act that allows the NSA to completely ignore the Fourth Amendment. Both the Bush and Obama administrations have blatantly violated both the USAPATRIOT Act and the Fourth Amendment.

Your feeble attempt to revise history is not going to fly.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:15 PM
 
23,838 posts, read 23,084,400 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
It's extremely easy. Snowden exposed "that boy", using a phrase some right-wingers use on here, while liberals hate Snowden because he exposed "their man". That's all that it is. If Romney was president and Snowden exposed Romney, the tables would be completely turned, it would be liberals praising Snowden and conservatives condemning him. BY the way, Snowden exposed things that were already public knowledge, just forgotten about
I believe the proper term is petulant, inexperienced man-child.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:20 PM
 
23,838 posts, read 23,084,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
I don't know about your "friends" but the Snowden incident breaks all lines between who is a conservative and who is a liberal. The story and one of Snowden's biggest defenders was written by a extremely liberal writer published in an extremely liberal newspaper.

There are liberals like Diane Feinstein standing shoulder to shoulder with Lindsey Graham and Saxby Chambliss while on the opposite side you have John Conyers singing Kumbaya with Rand Paul, the Tea Party and the ACLU.

So trying to cast this story as some flip-flop for either conservatives or liberals is way off the mark.
Excellent post ovcatto.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Barrington
63,919 posts, read 46,615,875 times
Reputation: 20674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
Only by the ignorant, or those attempting to revise history. The USAPATRIOT Act was enacted into law in 2001 by a Republican controlled House and a Democrat controlled Senate. Just like today. Both the majority of Republicans and the majority of Democrats voted for the USAPATRIOT Act. Which makes it a bipartisan law.

Furthermore, the most recent revisions to the USAPATRIOT Act were made in 2011 by a Republican controlled House and a Democrat controlled Senate. Additionally, there is nothing in the USAPATRIOT Act that allows the NSA to completely ignore the Fourth Amendment. Both the Bush and Obama administrations have blatantly violated both the USAPATRIOT Act and the Fourth Amendment.

Your feeble attempt to revise history is not going to fly.
I believe the Patriot Act was accomplished by the 107th Congress. The Senate was split 50-50.
Only one senator voted against the Patriot Act, a Democrat from Wisconsin, who warned about it.

There were 66 nays in the House; 3 Republicans, 62 Democrats and 1 Independent.

Bottom line, it was bipartisan.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Barrington
63,919 posts, read 46,615,875 times
Reputation: 20674
Quote:
Originally Posted by AeroGuyDC View Post
Excellent post ovcatto.
Ditto.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:29 PM
 
Location: New York City
4,035 posts, read 10,276,889 times
Reputation: 3753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
Only by the ignorant, or those attempting to revise history. The USAPATRIOT Act was enacted into law in 2001 by a Republican controlled House and a Democrat controlled Senate. Just like today. Both the majority of Republicans and the majority of Democrats voted for the USAPATRIOT Act. Which makes it a bipartisan law.

Furthermore, the most recent revisions to the USAPATRIOT Act were made in 2011 by a Republican controlled House and a Democrat controlled Senate. Additionally, there is nothing in the USAPATRIOT Act that allows the NSA to completely ignore the Fourth Amendment. Both the Bush and Obama administrations have blatantly violated both the USAPATRIOT Act and the Fourth Amendment.

Your feeble attempt to revise history is not going to fly.
I’m not trying to absolve Obama and the Democrats of responsibility. I’m saying that it’s untenable for mainstream Republicans to disavow the Patriot Act and the NSA simply to embarrass Obama. In terms of their own political self-interest, they have more to lose than gain on that one.

Of course if you’re a Libertarian you probably have problems with all of them—but that’s another issue.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:30 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,978,939 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
Both the Bush and Obama administrations have blatantly violated both the USAPATRIOT Act and the Fourth Amendment.
Specifically, what are the blatant violations of the Patriot Act of the Fourth Amendment?
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,732 posts, read 6,770,588 times
Reputation: 2374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
Exposing the crimes committed by our own government against its people is a good thing. However, revealing National Security information to foreign governments is not a good thing. Which makes Snowden both a hero and a traitor.

If he had shut up after exposing the NSA violations of the USAPATRIOT Act, he would have remained a hero. However, he did not shut up. He continued to reveal National Security information to the Chinese, the Russians, and who knows who else. That makes him a traitor.
That pretty much sums it up.

I want to know what our government is doing where it concerns actions against US citizens.

As far as exposing our government spying on other countries is concerned and revealing highly confidential information, that's crossing the line, even if those countries (China/Russia) probably already have the same information as a result of their spying on the US and more than likely exchanging information.

Our government has known for years that China has been using cyber espionage - hacking into ALL our government agencies, along with major corporations, and the US didn't take action until recently when Obama publically acknowledged it prior to meeting with Xi. During the meeting neither Obama or Xi directly addressed the cyber espionage problem, but Obama in a roundabout way told China to "stop it". (As if they will and as if the US will stop spying on China) Can't imagine China being "upset" as to how our government is spying on them seeing as have they have a much better cyber spy network compared to the US.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,404,380 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom View Post
I believe the Patriot Act was accomplished by the 107th Congress. The Senate was split 50-50.
Only one senator voted against the Patriot Act, a Democrat from Wisconsin, who warned about it.

There were 66 nays in the House; 3 Republicans, 62 Democrats and 1 Independent.

Bottom line, it was bipartisan.
No, the Senate was not split. Senator Daschle (Democrat) was the majority leader and he set the agenda for the Senate. But you are correct in that the USAPATRIOT Act was bipartisan.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,404,380 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
I’m not trying to absolve Obama and the Democrats of responsibility.
Of course you were. You were attempting to put the blame on the Republicans exclusively, when it was both Republicans and Democrats that supported the USAPATRIOT Act.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
I’m saying that it’s untenable for mainstream Republicans to disavow the Patriot Act and the NSA simply to embarrass Obama. In terms of their own political self-interest, they have more to lose than gain on that one.

Of course if you’re a Libertarian you probably have problems with all of them—but that’s another issue.
I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, and I continue to support the USAPATRIOT Act. What the NSA did violated that law. Blaming the USAPATRIOT Act for the actions by the Bush and Obama administration is like blaming the law prohibiting murder because someone gets murdered. Instead of blaming the law for being violated, try blaming those who violated the law in the first place.
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