Why hate socialism so much??????????? (deaths, millionaire, murder, prison)
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I don't like Marx, I certainly don't like Lenin, don't understand why I have to speak in their terms. I'm not redefining the definitions I'm using the political definitions of these terms while you seem to be going by the Cold War propaganda definitions.
No it is not, the means of production were not socially owned therefore it is not socialist.
It is not my problem whom do you like. You, probably do not like the rule that 2+2=4, but it is still THE RULE.
You can not form your own rules and name something a name you like, just because you like it and that is the way you feel it LOL
The terms were set by Marx and Lenin and they still stay there.
All the bogus terminology you are using - it is your OWN terminology, which has absolutely nothing to do either with socialism, or with the realities of the Soviet Union.
"Only the foolish learn from experience — the wise learn from the experience of others." Romanian Proverb.
I am not against learning from other people's mistakes. After all, I have said repeatedly that I am against copying the way East Germany, let alone Russia had implemented socialism. That however does not mean that I am against trying a different implementation, a more modern, updated one. I am very pragmatic when it comes to updating things, including constitutions, holy books, etc. I know no taboos there
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirdik
What exactly is the US doing that is catastrophic for the world?
By being a really bad example which unfortunately lots of people try to emulate. I think a good system means it serves as an example. But if the whole world lived like people in the US, our planet would soon be over and done with. And I won't even start on politics and stuff like that...
As noted in the story the "east" thinks the "west" is too preoccupied with money. Something obviously lingering from the SU era reign of terror. Only communist and socialist would think people wanting to better their lives by making more money could have such a negative influence over an economy. They're basically parroting the everything to sustain life should be a "right" and they shouldn't "have to work" for those "rights."
Yes, half a million may have left, but there are still 20 million or so left if I am not mistaken.
Plus, there is a global trend for people to move from rural areas to cities, not just in former East Germany. Nor is the high percentage of old people typical of that part of Germany, the Western part is suffering from the same problem, actually most of Europe is
I don't like Marx, I certainly don't like Lenin, don't understand why I have to speak in their terms.
But you obviously like Trotsky because it was him who came up with and popularized the term "state capitalism" after he grew disgruntled with Lenin's approach to governing the country.
If there was a modicum of capitalism during the NEP in the 1920s Staling killed it by the early 1930 from that time on there was no capitalism in the USSR.
It was not run like a corporation it was run like a prison at best. People were "motivated" by fear not profit.
By being a really bad example which unfortunately lots of people try to emulate. I think a good system means it serves as an example. But if the whole world lived like people in the US, our planet would soon be over and done with. And I won't even start on politics and stuff like that...
It's your personal opinion based on your personal worldview. The US uses other countries as examples as well.
The US interstate highway system is modeled after the German autobahn for example.
By the way, do you have food stamps and free cellphones in Germany? If not then Germany is no socialist enough.
But you obviously like Trotsky because it was him who came up with and popularized the term "state capitalism" after he grew disgruntled with Lenin's approach to governing the country.
If there was a modicum of capitalism during the NEP in the 1920s Staling killed it by the early 1930 from that time on there was no capitalism in the USSR.
It was not run like a corporation it was run like a prison at best. People were "motivated" by fear not profit.
No Trotsky referred to it as a deformed worker's state. I'm not a Trotskyist, I'm a libertarian socialist.
The state was motivated by profit, the people were generally more concerned with surviving, which can also describe workers at McDonalds or Walmart.
It is not my problem whom do you like. You, probably do not like the rule that 2+2=4, but it is still THE RULE.
You can not form your own rules and name something a name you like, just because you like it and that is the way you feel it LOL
The terms were set by Marx and Lenin and they still stay there.
All the bogus terminology you are using - it is your OWN terminology, which has absolutely nothing to do either with socialism, or with the realities of the Soviet Union.
deal with it.
for tonight I'm done. it's late.
goodnight.
The terms were not set by Marx and Lenin. The person who coined the term socialism was Henri de Saint Simon. The term socialist was used by libertarian socialists, mutualists and Marxists who were all in The First International. The term Communism either came from Robert Owen or The French Revolution, but it was in use before Marx wrote his manifesto.
It is not my own terminology these are the definitions of these words, this is the Merriam Webster definition
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
So yeah collective ownership, not just state ownership, and certainly not state capitalism
As for communism..
Any ideology based on the communal ownership of all property and a classless social structure, with economic production and distribution to be directed and regulated by means of an authoritative economic plan that supposedly embodies the interests of the community as a whole. Karl Marx is today the most famous early theoretician of communism, but he did not invent the term or the basic social ideals, which he mostly borrowed and adapted from the less systematic theories of earlier French utopian socialists -- grafting these onto a philosophical framework Marx derived from the German philosophers Hegel and Feuerbach, while adding in a number of economic theories derived from his reinterpretation of the writings of such early political economists such as Adam Smith, Thomas Malthus, and David Ricardo. In most versions of the communist utopia, everyone would be expected to co-operate enthusiastically in the process of production, but the individual citizen's equal rights of access to consumer goods would be completely unaffected by his/her own individual contribution to production -- hence Karl Marx's famous slogan "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." The Marxian and other 19th century communist utopias also were expected to dispense with such "relics of the past" as trading, money, prices, wages, profits, interest, land-rent, calculations of profit and loss, contracts, banking, insurance, lawsuits, etc. It was expected that such a radical reordering of the economic sphere of life would also more or less rapidly lead to the elimination of all other major social problems such as class conflict, political oppression, racial discrimination, the inequality of the sexes, religious bigotry, and cultural backwardness -- as well as put an end to such more "psychological" forms of suffering as alienation, anomie, and feelings of powerlessness.
Yes, he rejected his own claim that the USSR had state capitalism and called it a degenerated workers' state instead.
You are free to leave McDonald's or Walmart or any other corporation, not so much if you work for a state behind the iron curtain.
I know you've been told this multiple times here but again to call the USSR's economic system capitalist is pure nonsense.
I don't think he ever claimed that the USSR was state capitalism.
Which doesn't have anything to do with whether it's capitalism or not, capitalism is merely about private ownership of capital, not about freedom to leave your job.
I don't think he ever claimed that the USSR was state capitalism.
Which doesn't have anything to do with whether it's capitalism or not, capitalism is merely about private ownership of capital, not about freedom to leave your job.
There was no private ownership of capital in the USSR.
The terms were not set by Marx and Lenin. The person who coined the term socialism was Henri de Saint Simon. The term socialist was used by libertarian socialists, mutualists and Marxists who were all in The First International. The term Communism either came from Robert Owen or The French Revolution, but it was in use before Marx wrote his manifesto.
It is not my own terminology these are the definitions of these words, this is the Merriam Webster definition
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
So yeah collective ownership, not just state ownership, and certainly not state capitalism
As for communism..
Any ideology based on the communal ownership of all property and a classless social structure, with economic production and distribution to be directed and regulated by means of an authoritative economic plan that supposedly embodies the interests of the community as a whole. Karl Marx is today the most famous early theoretician of communism, but he did not invent the term or the basic social ideals, which he mostly borrowed and adapted from the less systematic theories of earlier French utopian socialists -- grafting these onto a philosophical framework Marx derived from the German philosophers Hegel and Feuerbach, while adding in a number of economic theories derived from his reinterpretation of the writings of such early political economists such as Adam Smith, Thomas Malthus, and David Ricardo. In most versions of the communist utopia, everyone would be expected to co-operate enthusiastically in the process of production, but the individual citizen's equal rights of access to consumer goods would be completely unaffected by his/her own individual contribution to production -- hence Karl Marx's famous slogan "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." The Marxian and other 19th century communist utopias also were expected to dispense with such "relics of the past" as trading, money, prices, wages, profits, interest, land-rent, calculations of profit and loss, contracts, banking, insurance, lawsuits, etc. It was expected that such a radical reordering of the economic sphere of life would also more or less rapidly lead to the elimination of all other major social problems such as class conflict, political oppression, racial discrimination, the inequality of the sexes, religious bigotry, and cultural backwardness -- as well as put an end to such more "psychological" forms of suffering as alienation, anomie, and feelings of powerlessness.
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