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Funny thing Fishmonger is the roots of Hamas according some Israeli historians.
Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation
Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
If we are using the Israeli model as a measure of success in war, then I think we should reconsider our game plan. Which country is financially supporting the other country in order for it to even exist?
I can at least say that I have noticed Bush is attempting to negotiate and use diplomacy with Iran now, much to the chagrin of the war lusters. Have to give the shrub at least a point for trying.
Right... I've heard of that before. Paint the "resistance" with a crazy Islamist face and remove any legitimacy they held as a result. Much of the PLO is comprised of secular groups and nationalists.
Right... I've heard of that before. Paint the "resistance" with a crazy Islamist face and remove any legitimacy they held as a result. Much of the PLO is comprised of secular groups and nationalists.
Well I think it was initially intended to simply split and fracture the PLO which was perceived as the most serious threat to Israel at that time. This seems to be more of a case of that famous, "Blow back" or unintended consequences as I don't think the Israeli's ever figured that Hamas would either last or enter into such a powerful movement that would one day result in the winning of democratic elections.
Talk about an ouchie kind of moment.
Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Ra**** (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."
Democracy cannot be imposed on the people. Those two concepts create an oxymoron. Bush had no desire to instil democracy to the Iraqis.
One does not bring democracy to the people by creating civil war ,destroying hundreds of thousands of innocent lives , infrastructure and bombing them back to the stone age. It is just plainly intellectually dishonest to claim so. One does not start a an illegal and immoral war based on lies and greed because they love democracy so much they must "share" it with the world. One who suppresses human rights as Bush has done at home and abroad is no lover of democracy but is its enemy and shows utter contempt for its basic principles.
I'm not sure that it was "utter depths of wanton stupidity" that led the Palestinians to elect Hamas as their government. People vote as much on domestic policy as foreign policy (especially when they're not affluent or educated enough to have a real reason to care what goes on outside their own borders) and Hamas was regarded as the less corrupt party, and one that cared more about the social welfare of the Palestinian people with their Hamas hospitals, schools, daycare, public works, etc. Hamas has a destructive and indefensible ideology with regards to Israel but this was de-emphasized during the elections. And their civil war is one that the US has helped fuel.
Hamas itself isn't a monolithic organization... much like those in the US, Palestinians and their public officials are faced with the choice of working for either "giant douches or turd sandwiches," although their douches are more giant and their sandwiches more turded than ours.
"However, the signs of deep dissatisfaction with Fatah have been visible for years: its corruption, inefficiency, and lack of progress in achieving the Palestinians' national goals of independence and a just settlement with Israel."
"Many Palestinians will have voted for Hamas because of its perceived discipline and integrity..."
"[Hamas] will doubtless concentrate on the domestic side, tackling issues such as law and order, poverty and healthcare. The imposition of strict Islamic government is not expected."
I think that if the US/Israel want to break popular support for Hamas in Palestine then we need to help the PA in creating non-Hamas hospitals, social services, schools, etc. and closing the gaps that the millitants are currently filling.
"Recent polls indicate very strong Palestinian support for continuing the cease-fire with Israel. Polls have consistently indicated that Palestinians reserve their right to resist occupation with force, but both oppose attacks on civilians (although the settlers in the West Bank who are often armed and sometimes have formed ad-hoc militias can blur the distinction between civilians and combatants) and believe that violence is an unsound tactic at this time (this has not always been the case during the second intifada, but the polls on this point have been consistent for quite some time now)."
Last edited by fishmonger; 11-12-2007 at 11:46 AM..
I'm not a Hamas apologist... I think they're a dangerous organization and political party, primarily for the Palestinians and Israelis near the border, but we have to look at things as they are, not as our minds want to classify them.
I'm not a Hamas apologist... I think they're a dangerous organization and political party, primarily for the Palestinians and Israelis near the border, but we have to look at things as they are, not as our minds want to classify them.
Why not try a third perspective: looking at their acts? Maybe that will help our minds become clear of illusions.
6 dead after Hamas fires on Arafat rally - Yahoo! News (broken link)
Like I said, I'm not a Hamas apologist and don't discount that their millitary arm has much innocent blood on its hands, but refusing to recognize Hamas as the PA's legitimately elected government, devastating the region's economy and supporting Fatah's semi-coup has, I think, done more harm than good by contributing to the Fatah-Hamas civil war.
Like I said, I'm not a Hamas apologist and don't discount that their millitary arm has much innocent blood on its hands, but refusing to recognize Hamas as the PA's legitimately elected government, devastating the region's economy and supporting Fatah's semi-coup has, I think, done more harm than good by contributing to the Fatah-Hamas civil war.
The Palestinians devastated their own economy by voting even more vile terrorist murderers into office. And remember -- Israel gave them Gaza, and what have they done with it? Turned it into a cemetery and a garbage dump.
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