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I don't think we really installed a democracy in Iraq, because for the most part the people themselves don't support it.
If we're really concerned with installing a democracy that enjoyed the support of the Iraqi people then the Kurds would already be an independent nation. The same goes for the Shi'a and Sunni. I think the Bush Administration is trying to force all three factions together into some sort of a forced democracy that's doomed for failure.
Neither the Kurds, Shi'a, or the Sunni really want anything to do with each other, yet we are forcing them together into a government, so is it really a surprise that isn't working? Is a government really a democracy when all three factions hate the others to the point where they are mortal enemies that want and do kill each other? The Kurds hate the Sunni and Shi'a, the Sunni hate the Kurds and Shi'a, and the Shi'a hate the Kurds and Sunni.
What Bush did would be the same thing as forcing the United States into a central government with China and Russia after an extremely bloody war. It's just not going to work no matter how many US troops die and no matter how much money we throw into it.
I agree. The cynical abuse of the Palestinian people by their fellow Arabs -- their use as a proxy army against Israel, their subjugation through the trickle of handouts that slip through the fingers of Fatah and Hamas, their inculcation of the victim complex among a people who should long ago have been absorbed into the populations of Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria -- is a most insidious and detestable form of oppression.
Interesting perspective...absorption into the surrounding countries.
I don't know that this was ever what Palestinians wanted, or want now; nor is it likely their neighbours,Syria, Lebanon or Jordon take kindly to the influx.
What might have worked, and could still work is an absorption into Israel with more rights, and no fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
I agree. The cynical abuse of the Palestinian people by their fellow Arabs -- their use as a proxy army against Israel, their subjugation through the trickel of handouts that slip through the fingers of Fatah and Hamas, their inculcation of the victim complex among a people who should long ago have been absorbed into the popluations of Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria -- is a most insidious and detestable form of oppression.
I agree. The cynical abuse of the Palestinian people by their fellow Arabs -- their use as a proxy army against Israel, their subjugation through the trickle of handouts that slip through the fingers of Fatah and Hamas, their inculcation of the victim complex among a people who should long ago have been absorbed into the populations of Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria -- is a most insidious and detestable form of oppression.
Do you think the Palestinians want that, to be absorbed into Jordan/Lebanon/Syria? Your position seems to be that Israel and the US have little or no culpability whatsoever for anything that's gone wrong in the Middle East since World War II, am I right? That seems to be the position you defend, "It's not our fault," no matter what. You're like Noam Chomsky's mirror-image arch nemesis. What, in your mind, has Israel's government ever done wrong? (Besides "being too nice to the evil suicidal fanatical Muslim arab scum," I mean). And what has the US government ever done wrong in the Middle East? Anything? Could you list like 5 or 6 things?
Interesting perspective...absorption into the surrounding countries.
I don't know that this was ever what Palestinians wanted, or want now; nor is it likely their neighbours,Syria, Lebanon or Jordon take kindly to the influx.
What might have worked, and could still work is an absorption into Israel with more rights, and no fights.
That was tried in 1948. The Arabs wouldn't let it happen, and invaded instead. Remember?
I don't think there is a single obstacle to peace, but several. How to get over these is the issue and of course, we won't be a party to that decision.
I'd love to see a fair redistribution of land to the Palestinians; a permanent moratorium on fighting between and among all parties; slow but painful withdrawal from some of the occupied land; integration of Palestinian leaders into Israeli government; an international Jerusalem, and probably more green space.
But to keep the Palestinians cooped up in camps, as the Arab states have done, is inhumane -- and remains the single biggest obstacle to peace.
I thought the 1948 war was about the UN wanting to divide Israel/Palestine into two separate states, rather than "absorbing the two together," wasn't it? The Arab countries wanted the one-state deal. Why is the righteous anger on your part for the Arab countries not accepting refugees/providing social services not matched with similar righteous anger against Israel, the country that actually runs the territories and the place where the refugees actually want to return? I'm not saying Israel's necessarily worse, but how much better are they?
Do you think the Palestinians want that, to be absorbed into Jordan/Lebanon/Syria? Your position seems to be that Israel and the US have little or no culpability whatsoever for anything that's gone wrong in the Middle East since World War II, am I right? That seems to be the position you defend, "It's not our fault," no matter what. You're like Noam Chomsky's mirror-image arch nemesis. What, in your mind, has Israel's government ever done wrong? (Besides "being too nice to the evil suicidal fanatical Muslim arab scum," I mean). And what has the US government ever done wrong in the Middle East? Anything? Could you list like 5 or 6 things?
1. Of course Israel has mistreated many Palestinians. The occupation of some territory is unconscionable, and was in most respects a sop thrown to the extreme right-wing parties who held the balance of power in the Knesset. That's the kind of unsavory deal-cutting that happens in democracies (remember the title of this thread? Democracies? Like in Israel? Just a thought for you to ponder...) That's why the Israelis gave Gaza to the Pals, after dismantling the Jewish settlements there.
2. Remember who created Israel? Not the US. It was the UN. So if anyone made a mistake it was that august body. As I recall, though, the UN resolution called for a partition which the Israelis -- the sparse survivors of the Nazi holcaust who had NO PLACE ELSE TO GO -- accepted. The Arabs responded with war. Remember?
3. The US has made many mistakes in the Middle East. It has also, however, been a steadfast proponent of a peaceful settlement between Israel and its neighbors. President Carter succeeded in bringing peace to Egypt and Israel. President Clinton manipulated the Israeli political system to bring Ehud Barak to power in 1999, and forced Israel to offer land for peace at Camp David. Who turned down the deal? The US? The wicked Jews? No, it was Yasser Arafat, who feared peace -- and the loss of power for him and his Fatah cronies-- more than anything else. Remember?
4. The culpability which Israel bears, and it is substantial, stems almost exclusively from aggressively responding to Palestinian (and Syrian) attacks on the tiny country, surrounded as it is by millions of Arabs who have been taught to loathe the Jews and pray for their deaths. Of course I blame Israel for occasionally over-reacting. But since the price of not responding is her certain extinction, I can usually excuse Israel's ferocity. Why can't you?
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