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Clearly the left doesn't ALWAYS resort to name-calling and violence. I'm on the left, I've never been violent and I try to refrain from name-calling as much as possible. Those on the right seem to engage in a fair bit of name-calling, and insults, and even violence as well.
And I did not suggest moving to the center. I suggested making sounder argument to support your belief that the policies and positions put forward by the right are superior to the policies and positions put forward by the left. Instead of making sweeping judgments against those who disagree with you (like the statement, "the left always resorts to name calling and violence").
A better argument is more persuasive than telling someone they are stupid or shallow or uninformed, etc.
conservatives don't have better arguments. I am about to make sweeping generalizations, but it reflects the reality of what conservatism is and what motivates conservatives generally right now.
They don't care about public policy, outside of tax cuts for rich people, and fewer regulations, I can't think of a single conservative policy position that is being advanced to solve any issues faced by regular Americans.
Income inequality, stagnating wages, lack of health insurance, exploding costs of health care, college, racial inequality, etc, are all real problems, conservatives have nothing, say nothing and plan on doing nothing about any of those concerns.
What conservatives push when they get elected is this culture war crap. Anti-abortion stuff, anti-voter stuff, anti-union stuff, anti-immigrant, anti-sharia law/muslim, etc.
I wish this weren't the case. I wish conservatives weren't so hateful of our government and a huge percentage of this nation's citizens but they are.
conservatives are terrified. You can hear it in their language, they think this nation is finished or on the verge of being finished. There are more and more radical voices being given legitimacy within the conservative ranks. More and more violent voices.
conservatives are getting more and more far right. When past right wingers criticize the conservative party, they all say it has gotten too extreme too right wing. People who were extreme right wingers not long ago, Dole, Boehner, Saxby Chambliss, Coryn, etc are now all considered moderates by conservatives.
Milton Freidman who use to be the one conservative economist that conservatives would quote, is now not far right enough for conservatives.
Their whole economic, and philosophical rationals are breaking down as a party. Old style conservatives didn't want to tear down government institutions. These conservatives do.
This is what motivates conservatives right now fear and hatred. This is what all of their rhetoric and policies are predicated upon.
Hatred of homosexuals, hatred of immigrants, hatred of poor people, hatred of unions, hatred of liberals. It is there every day they go out and spew the most vile things every day we catch glimpses of what lies in most of their hearts and it is very ugly.
I wish conservatives wanted to debate policy but they don't. They think this is a battle to save America and guess who they identify as enemies of American freedom? A lot of other Americans.
I wish conservatives wanted to debate policy but they don't. They think this is a battle to save America and guess who they identify as enemies of American freedom? A lot of other Americans.
Not for nothing, but conservatives aren't the ones who just claimed plenipotentiary power to kill Americans on U.S. soil. Perhaps policies like that should be our concern rather than the minor issues that our government would like for us to pay attention to.
conservatives don't have better arguments. I am about to make sweeping generalizations, but it reflects the reality of what conservatism is and what motivates conservatives generally right now.
They don't care about public policy, outside of tax cuts for rich people, and fewer regulations, I can't think of a single conservative policy position that is being advanced to solve any issues faced by regular Americans.
Income inequality, stagnating wages, lack of health insurance, exploding costs of health care, college, racial inequality, etc, are all real problems, conservatives have nothing, say nothing and plan on doing nothing about any of those concerns.
What conservatives push when they get elected is this culture war crap. Anti-abortion stuff, anti-voter stuff, anti-union stuff, anti-immigrant, anti-sharia law/muslim, etc.
I wish this weren't the case. I wish conservatives weren't so hateful of our government and a huge percentage of this nation's citizens but they are.
conservatives are terrified. You can hear it in their language, they think this nation is finished or on the verge of being finished. There are more and more radical voices being given legitimacy within the conservative ranks. More and more violent voices.
conservatives are getting more and more far right. When past right wingers criticize the conservative party, they all say it has gotten too extreme too right wing. People who were extreme right wingers not long ago, Dole, Boehner, Saxby Chambliss, Coryn, etc are now all considered moderates by conservatives.
Milton Freidman who use to be the one conservative economist that conservatives would quote, is now not far right enough for conservatives.
Their whole economic, and philosophical rationals are breaking down as a party. Old style conservatives didn't want to tear down government institutions. These conservatives do.
This is what motivates conservatives right now fear and hatred. This is what all of their rhetoric and policies are predicated upon.
Hatred of homosexuals, hatred of immigrants, hatred of poor people, hatred of unions, hatred of liberals. It is there every day they go out and spew the most vile things every day we catch glimpses of what lies in most of their hearts and it is very ugly.
I wish conservatives wanted to debate policy but they don't. They think this is a battle to save America and guess who they identify as enemies of American freedom? A lot of other Americans.
I think these are sweeping generalizations and unfair. I know many conservatives. I live in the conservative heartland. And I debate policy with those conservatives on a daily basis. On this forum we see many who echo political pundits whose stock-in-trade are clever put-downs and emotional appeals. And I have to say we see that on both sides of the political spectrum.
There are many people in this country who are political conservatives, they live here just like you do, they want their perspective reflected in their government, just like you do. A government of the people, by the people and for the people has to reflect ALL of the people. And I realize that that is a liberal perspective. As a liberal, I find myself often trying to explain to fellow liberals the validity of conservative ideology, because it does have validity.
What do I see as important conservative policy and values? I think cutting government spending has a lot of value. I think advocating a smaller government that intrudes less into its citizens' lives is a value and policy I can get behind. I think transparency in government is important. Conservatives have many ideas and policies I can get behind. When McCain was running, I found many things to admire about him. I also had concerns. And I felt exactly the same about President Obama, that there were many things I admired, and that there were things I was concerned about. I suspect that the vast majority of people who voted for Obama felt exactly the same. We have to consider the whole package, because that's what we're getting, a whole package, and some things we like, some things we don't, and when we go to vote, we're saying which one had more to like for us as individuals.
Liberals aren't all alike, and neither are conservatives. Hate and ignorance aren't owned by any political perspective. I shake my head over the vile things I read on this forum. I hang my head in shame when I indulge in the vitriol myself. Because I am engaged in the discussion, and fully engaged, emotionally and intellectually, and that means sometimes the emotions gain the upper hand. That's not what I aspire to. I think the majority of people in this country who are interested and involved in politics (not the ones who are in it for the money, but the ones who are in it because they care), and that includes people on this forum, aspire to having productive conversations with the people they disagree with. But in public forums you have people who are going to interject insults and petty partisanship. It's a small price to pay for freedom of speech.
Obama's presidency has been one of abject failure and economic misery, scarred by scandal. The only jobs the admin has "created" are part time jobs. Incomes, savings, and standard of living has fallen during the Obama administration, and we have three more years of this downtrend to endure.
2016- How are the libs going to promote four more years of liberal "rule" after this debacle? Will Americans be dumb enough to vote for another liberal and doom the nation to four more years of economic misery? Has the electorate become conditioned, via government treats for votes programs, to simply vote democrat, regardless of performance and personal voter economic misery?
Libs- If liberal policy is so great, why do we have greater numbers of unemployed (or underemployed), lower incomes, lower savings, and more people on food stamps? The only people that appear to have prospered under Obama is the "1%ers"- oddly the people that Obama purports to hate.
There are no more years of OBama, this is his last term
Not for nothing, but conservatives aren't the ones who just claimed plenipotentiary power to kill Americans on U.S. soil. Perhaps policies like that should be our concern rather than the minor issues that our government would like for us to pay attention to.
Not for nothing, but it was mostly conservatives who were advocating and still advocate for the use of torture. What is a minor issue to you is often a major issue to someone else. I think whenever anyone tries to label some issues as minor and other issues as important, what they are trying to do is to control the narrative, to control the discussion. But it is up to as individuals to prioritize the issues for ourselves, and to participate in discussions over those issues as we see fit. It's up to us to educate ourselves about the issues; that's part of the responsibility of the kind of government we've chosen as a society.
Not for nothing, but it was mostly conservatives who were advocating and still advocate for the use of torture. What is a minor issue to you is often a major issue to someone else. I think whenever anyone tries to label some issues as minor and other issues as important, what they are trying to do is to control the narrative, to control the discussion. But it is up to as individuals to prioritize the issues for ourselves, and to participate in discussions over those issues as we see fit. It's up to us to educate ourselves about the issues; that's part of the responsibility of the kind of government we've chosen as a society.
I agree with you for the most part. The problem as I see it is that most people allow the politicians and the media to lead their thought processes into directions that don't address key issues. Importance is subjective in the political world.
Not for nothing, but conservatives aren't the ones who just claimed plenipotentiary power to kill Americans on U.S. soil. Perhaps policies like that should be our concern rather than the minor issues that our government would like for us to pay attention to.
Not for nothing, but when GWBush was president, conservatives pushed the patriot Act, pushed giving the Presidency expanded powers to fight the war on terror, created homeland security, created GITMO and the idea of indefinite detention, supported torture, supported the idea of pre-emptive war, and supported a declared war on terror that is still on going.
So please. Yet, somehow conservatives believe they have nothing to do with what is on going in the continued terrorism fight that they overwhelmingly still favor we wage as a nation.
Liberals are the only group that has consistently been against this stuff from the start.
We should end the war on terror. We should end the patriot act, we should close GITMO, get rid of the idea of indefinite detention, don't torture, get rid of the idea of pre-emptive war anything else?
Not for nothing, but when GWBush was president, conservatives pushed the patriot Act, pushed giving the Presidency expanded powers to fight the war on terror, created homeland security, created GITMO and the idea of indefinite detention, supported torture, supported the idea of pre-emptive war, and supported a declared war on terror that is still on going.
So please. Yet, somehow conservatives believe they have nothing to do with what is on going in the continued terrorism fight that they overwhelmingly still favor we wage as a nation.
Liberals are the only group that has consistently been against this stuff from the start.
We should end the war on terror. We should end the patriot act, we should close GITMO, get rid of the idea of indefinite detention, don't torture, get rid of the idea of pre-emptive war anything else?
Ahhh, the "It's all Bush's fault!!!" argument. I love that one. It makes it so much easier to tell which side of the aisle the other person is coming from.
Are conservatives blameless? Not by a long shot. However, stating that liberals are consistently against anything is a fallacious statement. If liberals are against the Patriot Act, why did Obama not only uphold it but broaden its scope? If liberals are against preemptive war, why do we have drones circling Libya and killing children under Obama? For that matter, Obama has had plenty of opportunity to suspend torture, stop the war on terror, and shut down homeland security. He hasn't done any of it.
Get off your high horse, the liberals are as much to blame as the conservatives for the police stat the America is becoming.
I think these are sweeping generalizations and unfair. I know many conservatives. I live in the conservative heartland. And I debate policy with those conservatives on a daily basis. On this forum we see many who echo political pundits whose stock-in-trade are clever put-downs and emotional appeals. And I have to say we see that on both sides of the political spectrum.
There are many people in this country who are political conservatives, they live here just like you do, they want their perspective reflected in their government, just like you do. A government of the people, by the people and for the people has to reflect ALL of the people. And I realize that that is a liberal perspective. As a liberal, I find myself often trying to explain to fellow liberals the validity of conservative ideology, because it does have validity.
What do I see as important conservative policy and values? I think cutting government spending has a lot of value. I think advocating a smaller government that intrudes less into its citizens' lives is a value and policy I can get behind. I think transparency in government is important. Conservatives have many ideas and policies I can get behind. When McCain was running, I found many things to admire about him. I also had concerns. And I felt exactly the same about President Obama, that there were many things I admired, and that there were things I was concerned about. I suspect that the vast majority of people who voted for Obama felt exactly the same. We have to consider the whole package, because that's what we're getting, a whole package, and some things we like, some things we don't, and when we go to vote, we're saying which one had more to like for us as individuals.
Liberals aren't all alike, and neither are conservatives. Hate and ignorance aren't owned by any political perspective. I shake my head over the vile things I read on this forum. I hang my head in shame when I indulge in the vitriol myself. Because I am engaged in the discussion, and fully engaged, emotionally and intellectually, and that means sometimes the emotions gain the upper hand. That's not what I aspire to. I think the majority of people in this country who are interested and involved in politics (not the ones who are in it for the money, but the ones who are in it because they care), and that includes people on this forum, aspire to having productive conversations with the people they disagree with. But in public forums you have people who are going to interject insults and petty partisanship. It's a small price to pay for freedom of speech.
conservatives don't advocate for a smaller government that is less intrusive. You know you they don't. Why must we pretend that just because people say they believe something when we can see that they'd expand the government in all kinds of ways.
conservatives believe in a huge military, that expanding government. conservatives believe in no abortions that is expanding government, conservatives believe in more voter laws that is expanding government, passing a law that bans homosexual marriage is a huge expansion of government, wanting immigration laws like the one passed in AZ would be a huge expansion of government, etc and so on.
The ways that conservatives want to cut government spending has to do with who government spending helps.
If the government spending helps groups of people that conservatives hate than that government spending is always cast as too big government.
If the spending benefits groups conservatives don't hate then the spending is ok. This is why conservatives support the three largest government expenditures by far Social Security, Medicare, and the military.
To me conservatives don't support a smaller less intrusive government or less government spending, they support cutting off funding that helps groups of people that they hate and they support a large and intrusive government.
Civilized debate is what it is, but we have to look at reality and the reality is that conservatives have very ugly motives for their expressed political beliefs and when elected and in power they pursue policies that are aimed at hurting specific groups of Americans in various ways.
That's pretty much the same thing you guys were saying in the run-up to the 2012 elections, and we all know how well that worked out for you. So just keep saying it. Over and over, while clicking the heels of your Ruby Slippers. See if that get's you back to Kansas.
The American electorate does not live inside the same right-wing echo chamber you do. Unlike the frothing nabobs at Free Republic or WND, they can tell the difference between a real scandal and an Issa witch hunt; between a recovering economy and an imploding one; between starting unpopular and unnecessary wars and ending them; between pragmatic collaboration and unreasoned obstructionism. They will make their decisions based on what their experience tells them... not what Mitch McConnel does.
The greatest weakness of the current American right is their inability to learn from their own mistakes.
Keep clicking those heels. There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home.
It works in the movies.
Perhaps the wealth sharing since the mid 60's with the results seen mean its not Republicnas clicking their heels hoping for a miracle. Its liberal think purely. Now they gripe because it resulted in wider income gap. Of course; when you put more at the bottom of government dependency that is what happens; more at the bottom. You make it possible for people that can't afford a home to get one by down payment and closing cost help they are likely to not make payments and lose the home and then get a credit hit. Even the refis showed this first year in that 59% went back into foreclosure first year. Two hits caused by unintended consequences of bad policy decisions.
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