U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 11-25-2007, 09:21 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,395,595 times
Reputation: 4002

Advertisements

No, the Christian church arose among the lower economic and social classes and had a strong bias against individual show and accumulation for many, many centuries. With the coming of what some might call modernity, the distributions of both power and wealth were expanded in western societies and the church had to change to keep pace with societal changes or face a slow descent into irrelevancy. That process continues today. Similarly, there was a long tradition of careful, good-shepherd type stewardship over the dominion that God had given us in the early church. That thread hasn't been quite so thoroughly reppressed, but with the coming of the Industrial Age and the importance of securing patrons from the environmentally ravenous commercial sector, let's just say it received a lot less emphasis than it once did. Perhaps interestingly, the green idea seems to be resurfacing to some degree as an anti-wedge issue of cooperation between fundie/evangelical and more mainstream sects, each of whom is discovering that hey, they have the same old coat hidden away in the attic. Meanwhile, some vestige of old church attitudes toward charity could be seen in the Amish reaction to the schoolgirl shootings last year. In an act that was described as 'unthinkable' in some reports, they set up a fund to help raise and educate the children of the shooter. That plan would not have gotten past Jerry Falwell.

In any case, the point was to highlight the changing mores and strictures of the church in reaction to changes in the society surrounding it. A church needs to supply social support and services that people actually want if it is to have any hope of being able to justify (and earn) the otherwise excess costs of supporting it.

 
Old 11-25-2007, 09:33 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,022 posts, read 102,689,903 times
Reputation: 33083
"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8 and 9. This is the key to Christian faith. This verse led Martin Luther to start the Reformation.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 09:53 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,395,595 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittnurse70 View Post
"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8 and 9. This is the key to Christian faith. This verse led Martin Luther to start the Reformation.
In addition to underlying another example of the church's changing in response to societal changes, that verse is a key only in the protestant versions of the Christian faith. I would take it that many non-reformist sects still adhere to a transformative doctrine of infusion when it comes to the grace bit, there typically being a role reserved in all this for some well-fed, well-kept member of the clergy acting as a necessary guide and intermediary...
 
Old 11-25-2007, 10:47 PM
 
240 posts, read 352,487 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
In addition to underlying another example of the church's changing in response to societal changes, that verse is a key only in the protestant versions of the Christian faith. I would take it that many non-reformist sects still adhere to a transformative doctrine of infusion when it comes to the grace bit, there typically being a role reserved in all this for some well-fed, well-kept member of the clergy acting as a necessary guide and intermediary...
I take you just want something to argue about. Does not matter what subject, you just want to carry on and on. lol
 
Old 11-25-2007, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,038 posts, read 45,065,598 times
Reputation: 20425
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittnurse70 View Post
What do we say on Halloween? "Happy fall" or simply "Happy Holiday"? No, we say "Happy Halloween". What do we say at Valentine's Day? "Happy love"? No. It's the same thing. Both of those days have religious connotations as well (not official holidays, though you wouldn't believe it for all the hype). You ought to be able to say "Merry Christmas" without feeling guilty.
But if there were other holidays around Halloween, which were widely celebrated, maybe we WOULD say Happy Holidays? That's what you're all missing - the phrase is to include other Holidays occurring in late fall-winter, which just happens to be a busy time! On December 24th & 25th, of course we should be saying Merry Christmas to most people... but considering the "Holiday season" now starts the day after Halloween, it's only logical to come up with a phrase to include Christmas, Thanksgiving, Chanukah, Veteran's Day, New Year's, and everything else that happens. Or do you think YOUR one holiday should trump all others in that 2-month period?? Seems a tad selfish to me, if that is the case.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,038 posts, read 45,065,598 times
Reputation: 20425
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
What percentage of the population? .000000001% of the population does not make a wide-scale attack on Christmas.

As someone who loves Xmas carols (and probably knows more of them then 99% of the population), and who has always celebrated Christmas I want to point out a few things:

1) you have a half a dozen holidays that fall between Halloween and New Years.

2) Christmas, despite contrary belief does not begin October 20th (days before Halloween.) [I tried to buy Thanksgiving napkins before Thanksgiving.... but gasp, could only find decorations for CHRISTMAS. WTF!]

3) Christmas and Christmas Eve, is at best two days. Not the entire month of December, extended to November, and NOW, even OCTOBER!

4) Happy Holidays is most appropriate in public venues because of all of the above.

5) Consumerism has gotten most disgusting and it has been ruining Christmas for the past decade.
Amen, and good post! FYI, my birthday is on October 20th - and no, I don't think it's appropriate to wish me a Merry Christmas on that day, or any other time before mid-December. Like I just posted, it seems very selfish to dominate an entire 2-3 months. Isn't December enough for them? For cryin' out loud, we've had Christmas decorations and commercials since my birthday... used to start after Thanksgiving, but seems to be getting earlier every year! Next year they'll start celebrating Christmas the day after Labor Day - LOL.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 11:08 PM
 
240 posts, read 352,487 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnbound2day View Post
It seems inevitable that the word "Christmas" will be a hot topic yet again this year as companies try to decide what their policy is, and people who aren't Christians attack the word Christmas, and people who are Christians think everyone should have to say it, even the Hindu guy from India at the gas station. It is the Politically Correct/Incorrect argument of choice in November and December it seems when I turn on the TV or look at news online.



With all of this nonsense going on, my question to Christians who are upset about Christmas being removed from greetings is this. Why is the word Christmas so important to defend? I'm personally much more offended by the massive marketing campaigns, the obligatory gift buying marketing that pounds you from all radios and every store sign, and the excessive food that starts on Thanksgiving and many people choose to pig out all the way through New Year's, especially leading up to Christmas with all the "Christmas treats".

During the time all this happens, a lot of people rack up debt they can barely afford to pay, and add pounds from overeating, all in the name of Christmas. Shouldn't this be more of a concern for Christians to tackle? I would think poor stewardship of money and junking up the body is a much bigger problem for Christians than whether or not the person selling them the excess gifts and food finishes the transaction with a Merry Christmas.

Maybe I'm missing something...
Sounds like your talking from experience. Sorry it has not been so good for you.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,038 posts, read 45,065,598 times
Reputation: 20425
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1 View Post
I think you may have hit on something in your post. I think people that resent us celebrating our faith and our Christain holiday, or as you said, your culture, may have a void in their lives and feel left out. . . what else could possible be the reason for such anger against our celebration? I don't understand how well wishing, the benign greeting; Merry Christmas" has spawned such controversy.
Yes, I do feel left out, and have for the last 31 years. Not because my life is lacking in anything, since I'm very content with my religious faith (Judaism) and traditions... but because of the Christian dominance and pushiness over this issue. I've never complained about Christmas, but really folks - does it hurt to include a few people, who are left out of society 99% of the year? This country caters to you every single day, and all we ask for is a TINY bit of inclusiveness, during a time when people are celebrating a variety of holidays.

As for it being a "huge controversy," that's just media-hype... a few examples have been given, but it's hardly a widespread or major issue to most people. We still have Christmas trees, decorations, sales, etc., everywhere you look in this town - one that happens to be known for it's lack of religion, nonetheless.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,038 posts, read 45,065,598 times
Reputation: 20425
Quote:
Originally Posted by texas7 View Post
Nobody thinks you have to be a Christian to say Merry Christmas or to receive a Merry Christmas - and those who do say it to you are wishing you well and wishing you happiness. They just want to be able to say Merry Christmas without somebody being a whiny person saying that we shouldn't be allowed to say it for whatever reason. It's an act of kindness. It's always been Christmas...................
Actually, Chanukah has been around MUCH longer than Christmas... now what??

Sheesh - one of my friends is emigrating to Israel soon, and I'm beginning to understand why! Do you really want to drive the non-Christians away? Because that's what will happen, if you all continue with this attitude of "love it or leave it." I dunno, maybe that IS what some of you are hoping for, and that would be sad.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 11:25 PM
 
240 posts, read 352,487 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Actually, Chanukah has been around MUCH longer than Christmas... now what??
Simple explanation! Merry Christmas was passed down thru the generations in the USA. We were taught push your chair in when you get up, close the door behind you or always hold the door for the person behind. Don't shout across a room. Say thank you, say please and your welcome. Merry Christmas was taught the same way which was out of respect for others.
It is simple, it started many years ago and now it is being challenged. It makes sense from both sides. Using common sense makes you understand how the phrase has been passed on for genrations to be used as respecting others. Who knew it would lead to all this hub bub.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:28 PM.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top