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Old 11-18-2007, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,574,819 times
Reputation: 590

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Gotta go... you lost some credibility with me with your statement that "NewsMax and Sean Hannity don't do propaganda," but I'll try to address your peculiarly prolific pontifications later on in my perpetually pale portion of porous logic.
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Old 11-18-2007, 03:07 PM
 
114 posts, read 124,316 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Propaganda... the petition didn't say that "global warming is a lie with no scientific basis whatsoever," although it did express opposition to the Kyoto protocol. However it turns out they weren't all that strenous in verifying the signatories

Search Results | Seattle Times Newspaper

"While the petition has been portrayed by global-warming skeptics as authoritative evidence that many scientists reject the catastrophic scenario of global climate change, Robinson acknowledged that little attempt was done to verify credentials of those who responded."
Yawn, Nope Fact:

"There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate." - OISM

"[b]Listed here (on the left) are the approximately 19,000 signers of this petition. Qualification to be a signatory requires that the individual have a university degree in physical science, either BS, MS, or PhD. Those with MS or PhD degrees are so designated. Those with BS degrees are undesignated or sometimes designated as MD if appropriate. [...]

The signatures and the text of the petition stand alone and speak for themselves. These scientists have signed this specific document. They are not associated with any particular organization. Their signatures represent a strong statement about this important issue by many of the best scientific minds in the United States. [...]

In a listing of this size, some apparently duplicate names and some names identical to real or fictional people who are not scientists or signatories occur by chance. This listing has been very carefully verified. It contains one and only one entry for each scientist and contains no entries for individuals who are not trained in science or who did not sign the petition.[/b
" - OISM

The Petition is legitimate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
500 Scientists with Documented Doubts of Man-Made Global Warming Scares (Heartland Institute)

ect...

Another right-wing think tank. The "study's" criteria are vague and broad enough to make it likely that many of the "500 scientists with doubts" don't disagree with the "consensus" much at all, but are rather simply fulfilling their purpose as scientists by addressing issues related to it with articles that have either partially or completely survived the peer-review process, apparently without "debunking the consensus" in doing so. But like I've said, I don't put much stock in research done by biased conservative/libertarian think tanks whose only concern is to give a legitimate/intellectual backing to their various political views, by any means (and any half-truths) necessary.
Since there is NO 'Consensus' I have no idea what you are talking about. These papers dispute all the hysterical claims made by people like Al Gore.
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Old 11-18-2007, 03:08 PM
 
114 posts, read 124,316 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Gotta go... you lost some credibility with me with your statement that "NewsMax and Sean Hannity don't do propaganda," but I'll try to address your peculiarly prolific pontifications later on in my perpetually pale portion of porous logic.
Right, I lost some credibility because you make unverifiable statements based on non-existent evidence. You are unable to debate the facts and instead try to smear the sources, typical.
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:25 PM
 
4,740 posts, read 8,804,955 times
Reputation: 4073
Poptech - you know I agree with you on the topic, but IMO fishmonger has a point

You lose the liberal audience when you use Newsmax and Sean Hannity &c as sources. Do your research using your sources, but try to use 'neutral' or even liberal sources to present your points. They still won't listen, but IMO it's better form.
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,574,819 times
Reputation: 590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poptech View Post
Yawn, Nope Fact:

"There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate." - OISM

"[b]Listed here (on the left) are the approximately 19,000 signers of this petition. Qualification to be a signatory requires that the individual have a university degree in physical science, either BS, MS, or PhD. Those with MS or PhD degrees are so designated. Those with BS degrees are undesignated or sometimes designated as MD if appropriate. [...]

The signatures and the text of the petition stand alone and speak for themselves. These scientists have signed this specific document. They are not associated with any particular organization. Their signatures represent a strong statement about this important issue by many of the best scientific minds in the United States. [...]

In a listing of this size, some apparently duplicate names and some names identical to real or fictional people who are not scientists or signatories occur by chance. This listing has been very carefully verified. It contains one and only one entry for each scientist and contains no entries for individuals who are not trained in science or who did not sign the petition.[/b
" - OISM

The Petition is legitimate.
Because its creators say it is?


Quote:
Since there is NO 'Consensus' I have no idea what you are talking about. These papers dispute all the hysterical claims made by people like Al Gore.
So you dispute the idea that the IPCC, in addition to the positions of nearly every major scientific orgainization in the world other than the "Petroleum Geologists of America" is a good representation of any sort of scientific consensus? How so?
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,574,819 times
Reputation: 590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poptech View Post
Nope they do not produce propaganda they just relentlessly hammer certain positions and facts you don't want to hear.

The reason I am skeptical is because ALL the evidence for man being the cause is based on worthless computer models.

All the computer illiterates are convinced that because something is done on a "super computer" that costs "millions of dollars" it is infallible. Plugging in biased, incomplete or flat out wrong data combined with poorly understood systems into a "model" that includes god knows how many guesses and assumptions will give you junk. Garbage in = Garbage out. I am a computer analyst and can make a computer model do whatever I want by "tuning" it (adjusting variables until I get the answer I want or think is right). The more complex the model the more "mysterious" it seems. Processing more complex data in more complex ways via guessing gives you more complex junk results. But since the models have been "tuned" (guesstimated or deliberately altered to get the results you want) they get results that "seem" likely, except it is based on a complex serious of junk calculations and data.

The problem is computer models need exact information (accurate data and the correct procedure to process the data) to get exact answers, without that you get junk results, period. The public gives computer climate models this mystical aura because they are largely computer illiterate about how they actually work and when they hear the term "computer" they do not want to sound or feel stupid, so they nod their heads and go along with it.

Nothing is emotional about computers they are pure logical machines, 1 + 1 must = 2. Imagine trying to use random numbers to get a right answer on a calculator but you do not know if you are to add or multiply those numbers and that "right answer" you have no way to confirm because it is 50 years from now. Sound crazy? Welcome to Global Climate Modeling.

What the modelers do is they keep playing with the numbers in a much more complex way until they think they guess right. A useless exercise. These same climate models computers are used to predict your weather and you know how accurate they are. But damn! Al Gore and Gavin Schmidt can certainly tell your what the climate will be 50-100 years from now! Give me a break.

Why are we not turning to models to predict the future for everything? Because they can't, not even remotely. Some of them work "sort of" for the weather in very, very short term results (1-3 days) until all the data they are processing that is wrong combined with all the data they are missing and the millions of variables they are not accounting for start to kick in and grow exponentially the farther out the model runs and wham - the model is wrong. No kidding.

Modeling 50-100 years in the future when they cannot even give you accurate weather 3 days out? Don't be fools, I do this for a living, Computer Models cannot predict the future with anything as complex as the Earth's climate.

"Man-Made" Global Warming is an invented hysteria and Al Gore is largely responsible.
Computer models form only a portion of the evidence/research used to support the theory. And while they're imperfect, they've also been used to reproduce directions in global climate that HAVE happened and HAVE been recorded through the use of available variables, so while they aren't the "last word" or "irrefutably perfect" they also aren't simply discardable.
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Old 11-18-2007, 05:21 PM
 
6,760 posts, read 10,434,520 times
Reputation: 2996
The debate is over. The UN just released ITS MOST DIRE REPORT EVER!!!! Even more DIRE than the last 13 MOST DIRE EVER reports. The new consensus is that we will all burst into flames by the year 2020, the earth will spin out of orbit and crash into the sun. That is of course, unless we agree with the UN and start curbing CO2 emissions by imposing a breathing tax.
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Old 11-18-2007, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,521 posts, read 20,910,960 times
Reputation: 13858
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnbound2day View Post
The debate is over. The UN just released ITS MOST DIRE REPORT EVER!!!! Even more DIRE than the last 13 MOST DIRE EVER reports. The new consensus is that we will all burst into flames by the year 2020, the earth will spin out of orbit and crash into the sun. That is of course, unless we agree with the UN and start curbing CO2 emissions by imposing a breathing tax.
Please be accurate. The proposed tax is only to be required of heterosexual Anglo-Saxon males.
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Old 11-18-2007, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,574,819 times
Reputation: 590
The world's most persecuted & oppressed people, right? Waaah.
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Old 11-18-2007, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,521 posts, read 20,910,960 times
Reputation: 13858
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
The world's most persecuted & oppressed people, right? Waaah.
Not at all. Merely the scapegoat for the nouveaux fascistes.
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