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Not quite. The Founding Fathers set the system up so that state legislators appointed senators. Not the voters. That was the compromise instituted to get the states on board to ratify the constitution who were very wary of federal power. With senators appointed by the state legislators, the senators were beholden to their states and did the will of their state legislative bodies.
As you mentioned, the appointment of Senators by their state legislators (instead of being voted by the populace directly) was more than just a maneuver to get the states to ratify the Constitution.
It was the primary "check and balance" to keep the Federal government from usurping more and more power from the states.
The Constitution was designed to replace the original Articles of Confederation, that the country ran on for the first dozen years after it was founded in 1776. The AOC formed the country basically as fifteen (at the time) cooperating but independent countries - also called "states", and kept the central government very weak. This caused problems, so the AOC was scrapped and replaced with the Constitution.
The Constitution gave the Fed govt a FEW more powers it didn't have under the AOC- power to collect taxes, regulate interstate commerce, sign treaties with foreign nations etc. But those (and the rest named in the Constitution) were meant to be the ONLY powers the Fed govt could have (Doctrine of Enumerated Powers), unless the people decided to amend the Constitution to give the govt more.
The Framers knew from their studies, and from grim experience, that government would always try to take more and more powers, legally or otherwise. The Framers already had the Doctrine of Enumerated Powers to keep the Fed from doing this, but they didn't trust the Fed to obey the law. So they formed one body of the legislature with people appointed by the governments of each state, whose main purpose was to block any attempt by the Fed govt to bamboozle people into taking powers from the states and giving them to the Fed without a Constitutional amendment.
Passage of the 17th amendment removed this block, and is probably the biggest single contributor to the exploding government we have seen since.
Since the adoption of the 17th amendment, the Federal government has gone on merrily violating the Doctrine of Enumerated Powers, just as the Framers predicted they would, taking many powers it has no constitutional authority to take. Once the belt-and-suspenders redundancy provided by state-appointed Senators was gone, unscrupulous politicians have been pulling the states' pants down and doing what you can imagine to them, regularly.
Last edited by Little-Acorn; 09-27-2013 at 11:21 AM..
That's about $1,400 per year for every man, woman, child and illegal alien in the U.S. Or $5,600 per year for every family of four.
And if there's a low-income family not paying their share, then that means YOU are paying their share PLUS your own.
This is money we spend every year. And it buys nothing. Merely the privilege of having that huge debt hanging over our heads.
And it's getting bigger every year.
You could have bought yourself a pretty decent new car every three or four years with that cash, and have NO payments to make on it. Or saved up for a decent college education for your kid(s) by the time they are ready, paid in full. But you have to give it up instead, to support the National Debt.
Next time you wonder if there's anything harmful about having such a huge National Debt, remember that.
First I would like to admit many of you have a much deeper knowledge of the economy then I do and I have learned much in this thread. Goes to show you we can have a non in your face discussion when we choose to. Well done all
BTW, that linked spreadsheet displays one of the sleight-of-hand stunts the Fed govt keeps pulling, to avoid people finding out just how badly it is managing its own economy.
As I mentioned, the "Interest on Treasury Debt Securities" entry shows how much interest we paid in that year to maintain the National Debt.
As the title says, the entire spreadsheet is supposed to be a list of OUTLAYS. That is, spending. ONLY.
There are other spreadsheets that list income, from taxes, interest on loans the govt makes, etc.
But notice that the people who put together the OUTLAYS list, tossed in "Interest received" from various trust funds. And then they subtracted them from the interest paid on the National Debt, and titles the result "Net Interest", as though that was the main figure of interest.
What is "Interest Received", doing in a list of OUTLAYS???
It's a violation of fundamental accounting, of course. They do that to make the "amount of interest paid" look smaller.
Your government at work. This book-juggling has been going on since at least FDR's time in the 1930s.
Last edited by Little-Acorn; 09-27-2013 at 11:51 AM..
That's about $1,400 per year for every man, woman, child and illegal alien in the U.S. Or $5,600 per year for every family of four.
And if there's a low-income family not paying their share, then that means YOU are paying their share PLUS your own.
This is money we spend every year. And it buys nothing. Merely the privilege of having that huge debt hanging over our heads.
And it's getting bigger every year.
You could have bought yourself a pretty decent new car every three or four years with that cash, and have NO payments to make on it. Or saved up for a decent college education for your kid(s) by the time they are ready, paid in full. But you have to give it up instead, to support the National Debt.
Next time you wonder if there's anything harmful about having such a huge National Debt, remember that.
Enjoy.
A good portion of that interest money goes to 'we the people'. Another portion goes to foreign entities so that they remain fixed into the USD. Both portions are in our own major positive interest.
And it buys huge! It means we can all get our stuff cheaper from China, without having to use up our own resources and pollute our own environment. It also means we rule the world. Both militarily and financially. Yes it also means fewer jobs here.
I would suggest that you read or research more on modern monetary descriptions of our money, debt and economy.
You also might want to watch this 12 y/o describe what you may be asking for. Nationalization of our banks/money.
And I don't have the answers to that.
And I am one of those people who could make that argument.
Good point by you. The 17th Amendment is a mistake.
Saluting...
Mircea
And you people are allowed to vote?
You too, isn't that amazing.
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That's disgusting. No wonder America is FUBAR.
So, you all think you shouldn't pay back the National Debt.
Some of us were alive in 1971 when we went off the international gold standard. Want my old color TV?
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Well, um, then, excuse me, but do you want to explain how pensions will be paid?
You are excused for your ESL dis-fluency. Had you been a native speaker, I may have been more harsh.
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State government pensions, union pensions, corporate pensions, municipal city worker pensions, teacher, fire and police pensions....
...wanna explain how those will be paid?
I did in the graph. What assets do you think they put into pension funds? You must not be from Illinois that's for sure because they raised taxes to cover the shortfall from da guberment securities.
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I mean gosh, it's only $1.161 TRILLION....as of March 2013.
No big deal, right? I mean, $1.161 TRILLION I can find laying around almost anywhere. In fact, when it rains, it usually rains $1.161 TRILLION
~$3 TRILLION of the National Debt is Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds.
How much is that in nickels?
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Granted, that's government debt and not public debt, but that $3 TRILLION will have to be converted from government debt to public debt over the next 10 years (as the Trust Funds collapse).
If there were no debt that is exactly what would happen to the zero balance trust funds.
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I projected the National Debt to be $17.270 TRILLION by the end of 2013, and at present rates, by the year 2017, the US National Debt will equal 1/3 of World GDP.
And its still wrong. The balance held by the Fed is still like messaging your own feet.
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By 2025, the US National Debt will be approaching 50% of World GDP.
We run out of zeros?
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And by 2040, US National Debt will be greater than World GDP.
How many coconuts will there be?
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For those who don't get it, you need to go back and REDO FROM START Econ 201 and 202.
Nope, don't get it. Why don't you redo classical economics? You took the bait in the 20th century when it bacame the school of hucksterism. Modern economic is a laughing stock. Thought we went over this when I explained how history, anthropology, behavioral psychology and zoology and even political economy in the 19th century oppose all its mythologies. Going to econ anything is to schedule a lobotomy.
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The federal budget is like an household budget.
hahhahahahhahahaahahabwahahhahaha
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And just like an household, eventually you run out of people willing to loan you more money to finance your silliness.
Offer me an IOU for a cup of coffee and watch me reject it.
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That is Theoretical (Imaginary) Value, not Real Value.
Imagine that.
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The Theoretical Value is meaningless. It is the Real Value that matters, and the Real Value of anything is what you actually receive in cash.
Hello Marx. Labor theory of value? There is no "real value". There is only market price. And markets are composed. What is the real value of a boat before and after they blow up the damn? Gotta real value of the boat fer me? Of course that only applies to households. Now the government is suppose to consider value in the aggregate since we all do eat and crap all day and bump into each others noses. Must be why a finer class of people laugh at da guberment household idea.
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Example: Your home is worth $225,000 = Theoretical Value; You could only sell the home for $195,000 and that is the Real Value, not the $225,000 you imagined
Not if banks decide homeless people are credit worthy and decide to lend them against this new demand....
Not if banks decide to hold housing off the market to push up the margins....
Not if the FIRE sector has their puppets lower taxes on real estate and freezes it..
Not if the FIRE sector apologists create housing tax credits...
Not if the Chinese are allowed to enter the market...
Not if the local infrastructure is improved by public spending on it funder by income taxes...
Not if a famous rock band moves in and decides to hold free concerts.
Not if super models are to sun bath in the nude on the front lawn.
As if, Son.
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I would suggest that you all re-visit this thread in about 10 years, but some of you won't be able to do that, unless your local public library or a neighbor still has internet.
Amused....
It is also galling to note how much of the "national debt" began as FIRE sector bank credit rolled onto it in cash for trash, zero productivity credit allocation. And they charge for this? Banks create most of the money, and as I keep pointing out, with respect to raising cite values, aka ground rent, what is going on supply side?
Go to a bank; inject 700k into the economy; and the supply is ... nothing. And where the hell do people think inflation comes from? Deficits? What a joke.
But the financial press and the stooges that consume it keep blaming the puppet instead of the hand inside it.
Other than in times of war or serious economic recession most money is created via our private banking system.
When Congress starts tightening its own belt and LOBBYING money and kickbacks are made illegal, that when I will start caring about the debt. Because they obviously do not.
The cyclical nature of the American (and global) economy ensures that we are destined for financial ruin due to our burgeoning debt load. This is not hyperbole. Historical economic cycles demonstrate that it's not possible to sufficiently pay down the debt to "acceptable" levels before the next recession (debt incursion) begins its next cycle. It's the "snowball effect" and it should be acknowledged by all, liberals and conservatives alike, so that we can at least TRY to get a handle on the situation.
The United States as we know it is a thing of the past. Now it's just a matter of time before we unravel completely. Bet on it.
Other than in times of war or serious economic recession most money is created via our private banking system.
That's what I keep trying to tell people.
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