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Old 11-17-2007, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,489 posts, read 20,806,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Would the sequence Creationism...Creation Science...Intelligent Design have any meaning for you?
Yes, but not as a "deceptive tactic." What is deceptive about stating one's beliefs? The sequence you describe is innocuous when compared with calling oneself a "progressive" while supporting a return to atavism, for example.

Last edited by Yeledaf; 11-17-2007 at 08:42 PM..
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:43 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,291,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You refer to Jahova's witnesses and such. In this I agree with you.
I refer to a far broader group than the Jehovah's Witnesses, most of whom I have in fact found to be quite respectful of my individual rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
A moment of silence is just that. Silent... It imposes nothing on anyone other than you are expected to be quiet for a moment.
Schools in Illinois already have the right to require students to be silent, and each already presumably uses that right at times and in places that are appropriate to its legitimate interests and purposes. What purpose then for the law in question?
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Chicago
4,666 posts, read 8,897,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post


Wrong question. The actual question is what legitimate state interest is being served or advanced by this act? There is none. End of story. As to who will be hurt, the answer is all of those of minority or no religion who are made to feel as outsiders by the state or somehow inferior by either their teachers or their peers.
You should have ended the post at End of Story. I'm sorry, there isn't a kid out there who will be "hurt" or "feel like an outsider" by this legislation. These are kids we're talking about. Johnny Atheist will find plenty of companions to stiffle giggles about fart jokes during this holy moment of silence. Seriously, who are we kidding here? A handful of kids will use this time to pray, but those kids were already praying. For the rest of the the school, it will just be that awkward moment during the day when everything becomes that much funnier because you aren't allowed to laugh.
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,489 posts, read 20,806,021 times
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I think we can satisfy everyone by simply arming the teachers with tasers and having them warn students not to pray during the silent moment.

Any teacher who is able to telepathically detect illegal thoughts or the contemplation of a divine being is permitted to taser the offender(s).
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Hill Country Texas
119 posts, read 183,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
I think we can satisfy everyone by simply arming the teachers with tasers and having them warn students not to pray during the silent moment.

Any teacher who is able to telepathically detect illegal thoughts or the contemplation of a divine being is permitted to taser the offender(s).

you are a genius..I love it
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:56 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,291,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texcali32 View Post
stay with me here...a moment of silence is NOT promoting religion. frankly I think we need a little prayer in our schools and no one is forcing anyone to do it or not do it. again, whatever the act may be called, it's not harmful in my opinion. Kids made to feel like outsiders?? really because the students around them bow their heads? We live in a church going community, I have 3 kids and we do not attend church..my kids do not feel like outsiders. We do pray though and something ive found is that people who practice religion "usually" dont go around making people feel bad if they dont. Thats just maybe the radical small few that you are thinking of.
The issue is not with the actions of other people. It is with the actions of the state. Every child who feels a need to pray in school may do so at any time so long as he or she is not disruptive of other students. Any student who cares to do so may say grace to any god or gods before any meal. Students may freely discuss religion. They may form religious clubs and meet after hours on school property if clubs of any sort are permitted to do so. Students may commend their beliefs to other students subject to the same rules as would govern any other conversation. The state may do none of this. In respect of the diversity of the individual religious rights attendant to each of its students, the state, its schools, and the staff of its schools must remain neutral on all matters of religion. Establishing a special moment for silent meditation or student prayer is a patent violation of that neutrality.
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:02 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,291,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
"Everyone who now understands" often understands incorrectly, particularly when no words are utered or thoughts expressed. To fear silence is to fear thoughts. I see your pompous superciliousness and raise you a jocular evasion....
More prattle and maunder. You've been off-topic for pages...
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Hill Country Texas
119 posts, read 183,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
The issue is not with the actions of other people. It is with the actions of the state. Every child who feels a need to pray in school may do so at any time so long as he or she is not disruptive of other students. Any student who cares to do so may say grace to any god or gods before any meal. Students may freely discuss religion. They may form religious clubs and meet after hours on school property if clubs of any sort are permitted to do so. Students may commend their beliefs to other students subject to the same rules as would govern any other conversation. The state may do none of this. In respect of the diversity of the individual religious rights attendant to each of its students, the state, its schools, and the staff of its schools must remain neutral on all matters of religion. Establishing a special moment for silent meditation or student prayer is a patent violation of that neutrality.
ok im so tired of saying this but a "moment of silence" is not prayer. do I think kids should be forced to pray..no of course not but offering a moment when students are just being asked to shut up is not promoting religion. they can do with this moment as they please, so where is the harm? the state, teachers, etc... are never totally neutral. it's not possible. They can however remain neutral when they call it a "moment of silence" it is what it is get over it
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:07 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,291,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Why? Because of the name of the statute? How absurd.
You have no future in the field of justiciary services...
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,489 posts, read 20,806,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
In respect of the diversity of the individual religious rights attendant to each of its students, the state, its schools, and the staff of its schools must remain neutral on all matters of religion. Establishing a special moment for silent meditation or student prayer is a patent violation of that neutrality.
But what if the students wanted a moment of silence to simply collect their thoughts? Would the mere suspicion that such thoughts might veer -- ever so briefly -- into the spiritual realm, be enough to make that silence unacceptable to the Constitutional evolution from "Congress shall make no law", etc. to these ever-more-precise strictures on pedagogy?

Indeed, what if a particularly wanton student were apprehended meditating illegally? What would be the punishment?
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