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I guess you never read about how the Lincoln Administration used every tactic in the book -- promises of jobs, bribes, etc. to pass the 13th Amendment. You probably don't know that Medicare Part D was passed in a similar manner. None of that negates the force of law.
One can whine sour grapes and the ACA remains the law of the land.
Didn't realize that Lincoln was one of the founders. Man, he sure must have been really, really old when he was elected as the 16th president!
I give up on you guys. Seems that a whole bunch of people took stupid pills instead of vitamins when they got up today.
Oh, and for the record, I think that the (R)s shouldn't have done anything past Cruz's filibuster. They registered their position with the public - everyone got a reminder that the Democrats fully own the disaster known as Obamacare. They should have left it at that and then started working on the upcoming debt ceiling debate. Obamacare will be dismal. Everyone knows this. And yes, it is law. Defunding it won't alter the individual mandate, the taxes, or most of what sucks about it. It's not a repeal. They shouldn't have gone there.
Just remember, when it all goes to hell - and it will - YOU own this. YOU demanded it. YOU voted for it. YOU defended it. YOU. OWN. IT.
As usual, the lefties replying here have predictably claimed that the presidential election was about one single issue.
How insulting. As if every citizen is a "one issue voter." But if you ask those same lefties if THEY are one issue voters, they will emphatically respond that they're not. They'll tell you how smart they are, and how they carefully consider lots of aspects of their candidates.
Of course, that's not true. They're merely cheerleaders who are voting for the high school prom king.
But they actually believe that everyone else is just too dumb to consider more than just one issue - which happens to be the one being discussed at the moment - when casting their vote. What's funny about that is the fact that those same people who are too dumb to consider multiple issues when casting a ballot are the same dumb people that re-elected a terrible president.
I'm a Liberal, and not a one-issue voter. I disagree with anyone who says any president was elected on a single issue, Dem or Repub. What galls me is there are people who looked at the re-election of Bush II as a referendum on abortion or same-sex marriage, but then call foul when Libs say Obama was re-elected on the ACA. At least Obamacare is a major, signature issue that was unquestionably central to Obama's campaign.
If the libs so love Obamacare, why not put it to a national referendum?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009
The libs on this board are screaming about the "government shutdown". In my opinion, this is a very good thing, as this is a path to stop all the government waste. Social security checks are going out. People have medicare coverage. The military still functions. What else do we need?
It seems as though the libs (who crave the government- the rest of us can live without it and rely upon our local state governments for nearly everything) are "holding America hostage" in order to ram Obamacare down the throats of the people.
Why not a national referendum on Obamacare and see what the American people think? Then we could find out if the balance of Americans really want this, or just insane liberals.
I've said this on other threads, a healthy portion of voters who oppose the ACA do so because it's not strong enough, with no public option. Reputable polls suggest this makes up 10-15% of opponents.
Exactly. Also, let's remember that MANY Americans approve of the individual elements of Obamacare when the question is posed to them that way. They'll then say they oppose "Obamacare."
For that matter, many people don't even know what's in Obamacare. They've been told by liars like Fox that it's bad, and that's all they know.
Here you guys go. Since you're too lazy, stupid or scared (I think you're scared, personally, but maybe you're just lazy and/or stupid) to check it out for yourself...
That's not "pretty evenly split", nor is it showing public support for the law.
Find reality BEFORE you engage in these discussions. Then you won't look so dumb.
Nope, re-read what I wrote. I said that they are against the vague description of Obamacare; they are actually in favor of the specific items that are actually included in the Act, such as setting up healthcare exchanges, for one. In fact they are so popular that the web traffic on the exchange sites got overwhelmed on opening day. So these hardcore facts pretty much pee all over vaguely developed polls that can be worded and interpreted in myriad ways to mean myriad things. It's no different than all those polls that predicted a Romney victory. All of them were interesting except for one thing -- they were wrong on election night. So, look at the polls that really matter, then get back to us.
The next time you want to wax poetic about the Constitution and its authors, you might want to consider if your position would have actually been supported by them.
Both sides of the aisle use the same tactics, and if you read your history, it's always been so to some degree. It's just plain wrong to suggest otherwise.
And Conservatives have no idea what the Founders would think of anything now. None of us honestly do. What we do know is that they anticipated change. This is evident in their allowance for amendments and the relative vagueness of much of the founding documents.
Reliance on long- dead people as the basis of most any living argument is a waste of debate. For all we know, they'd think ALL of us are crazy.
Exactly. Also, let's remember that MANY Americans approve of the individual elements of Obamacare when the question is posed to them that way. They'll then say they oppose "Obamacare."
For that matter, many people don't even know what's in Obamacare. They've been told by liars like Fox that it's bad, and that's all they know.
The Jimmy Kimmel segment "Which do you like better Obamacare or the ACA?" is classic -- tells the whole story. Sorry, but polls give people in this country entirely too much credit. Americans may have a lot of skills but they don't have a lot of education, and we're unfortunately seeing the results.
Fully 72 percent of Americans disapprove of shutting down the federal government over differences on the Affordable Care Act; just 25 percent approve of this action. Republicans are divided: 48 percent approve, while 49 percent disapprove. Most tea party supporters approve of the government shutdown - 57 percent of them do. Disapproval of the shutdown is high among Democrats and independents. This CBS News poll was conducted after the partial government shutdown began on October 1.
Views of the Affordable Care Act are related to views of the shutdown. Those who like the health care law also overwhelmingly disapprove of shutting down the government. There is more support for the shutdown among Americans who don't like the 2010 health care law. Thirty-eight percent of them approve of the shutdown but even more, 59 percent, disapprove.
Actually, I'm one of the most vocal opponents of Obamacare. However, I don't need to resort to lying or making up my own reality. The only place you are getting 60% from is from the FOX polls, everybody else is pretty split on Obamacare.
"American voters oppose 72 - 22 percent Congress shutting down the federal government to block implementation of the Affordable Care Act, or Obamacare, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.
American voters are divided on Obamacare, with 45 percent in favor and 47 percent opposed, but they are opposed 58 - 34 percent to Congress cutting off funding for the health care law to stop its implementation."
It is even much more simple. Look not that it matters, but I am surrounded by people who voted for President Obama twice family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, and they don't like Obamacare because they don't know anything about Obamacare.
Disapproval of the law I think is really indicative of skepticism of the law. People don't trust politicians and they certainly don't trust abstract words about how an abstract law may or may not work.
I am surprised 100% of people don't hate the law. Heck I supported the law kind of and still I am like I hope it works but I was never singing the praises of a law that didn't really exist in the real world in tangible ways.
conservatives are just tone deaf.
His re-election tells the tale about the new law. People want it to work and hope it works. They wanted to give it a chance, but still don't trust it.
But conservatives are in such a bubble they take the polls to mean that people see it in the extreme manner that they see it, as a take over, as death and destruction, loss of freedom, blah, blah, blah.
Exactly. Also, let's remember that MANY Americans approve of the individual elements of Obamacare when the question is posed to them that way. They'll then say they oppose "Obamacare."
For that matter, many people don't even know what's in Obamacare. They've been told by liars like Fox that it's bad, and that's all they know.
My phone won't let me post a link, but check out Jimmy Kimmel's video survey on the ACA/Obamacare. People would say they despised Obamacare but support the ACA, or they would say they completely rejected Obamacare but agreed with all of the components they were asked about. It was for a laugh, but it was telling. Most Americans have no idea what they support and what they oppose. They just react to what little they've been told. I have to say, that can cut both ways, right wing and left. But it's pretty scary when people's lives and well-being hang in the balance.
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If the libs so love Obamacare, why not put it to a national referendum?
