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Old 11-20-2007, 09:03 AM
 
51,641 posts, read 41,596,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Who has made these claims? You fabricate them yourself simply so as to have something to debunk.


And save for two, those are the initial numbers. And of the 28 who were not, by anyone's accounting, terrorists, how many were 57-year old men in wheelchairs who were waving white flags when they were shot at close range and then run over where they lay by IDF tanks? These are your heroes at work. And while we are on the subject of numbers, how many armed Palestinians did Israel suspect were hiding out among the 14,000+ residents of Jenin? Was it 80? Was it 80 out of 14,000?


And in retaliation, the entire Hawashin district of Jenin was either destroyed or rendered uninhabitable. More than 300 buildings. To your knowledge, is such collective punishment of civilians classified as a war crime? I know...you completely ignored the earlier questions in this line for obvious reasons. Do those same reasons prevent you from answering again?


Did you not note the earlier links? Do you not understand that to engage in the blanket use of cluster munitions over broad and populated areas is simply guaranteed to result in the slaughter of civilians? How many clearly marked ambulances were attacked and destroyed? How many civilian hospitals were leveled? For the answers to these and various even more grotesque questions...

Lebanon: Deliberate destruction or "collateral damage"? Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure - Amnesty International (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE180072006?open&of=ENG-LBN - broken link)

I think it's interesting to note the destruction brought by Israel upon Hezbollah's al-Manar TV station on the grounds that it was disseminating propaganda. Swoop down and blow them to pieces, and this is perfectly okay by US right-wingers. But let Hugo Chavez so much as deny an over-the-air license renewal to a propaganda-disseminating TV station that had orchestrated a briefly successful military coup attempt, and he is labeled some sort of monster for it.

This is the non-existent level of impartiality, neutrality, and independent judgment that the right-wing brings to bear.
The democratic party is full of pro-Israel types. (Hillary in particular.)
I really don't see how you are able to solely associate our 40+ years of Israel support with the right.

Since this is a hot topic for you....why are you giving Hillary and others a free pass?

 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,565,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC View Post
I often wonder about such statements as it being ultimately the USA's fault for the Muslims hatred...

When simply reading the Koran will explain this hatred quite well.
And reading the Old Testament of the Bible will "explain" ethnic cleansing, justifications of slavery, aggressive wars against "Baal worshippers," and the death penalty for adultery, fornication, & homosexuality. But most Christians/Jews don't follow those parts. Why? Because the Bible is open to multiple interpretations, same as the Koran. When people are oppressed and impoverished it's easier to rile them up with the violent interpretation of your choice.
 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:10 AM
 
Location: North Cackelacky....in the hills.
19,556 posts, read 19,255,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Which one?
2007 poll.

Quite shocking I would imagine that a full 70% of those polled support the murder of civilians using terror.
 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,495 posts, read 20,835,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
And reading the Old Testament of the Bible will "explain" ethnic cleansing, justifications of slavery, aggressive wars against "Baal worshippers," and the death penalty for adultery, fornication, & homosexuality. But most Christians/Jews don't follow those parts. Why? Because the Bible is open to multiple interpretations, same as the Koran. When people are oppressed and impoverished it's easier to rile them up with the violent interpretation of your choice.
Yes, but while expressing multiple interpretations of the Bible may lead to one's being roundly criticized, expressing multiple interpretations of the Koran may lead to one's early demise.
 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Your mind
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As will inadvertently living in the vicinity of those who espouse and promote the more violent radical versions of the Koran, thereby inviting the wrath of the indiscriminate IDF.
 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:16 AM
 
Location: North Cackelacky....in the hills.
19,556 posts, read 19,255,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
And reading the Old Testament of the Bible will "explain" ethnic cleansing, justifications of slavery, aggressive wars against "Baal worshippers," and the death penalty for adultery, fornication, & homosexuality. But most Christians/Jews don't follow those parts. Why? Because the Bible is open to multiple interpretations, same as the Koran. When people are oppressed and impoverished it's easier to rile them up with the violent interpretation of your choice.
If people still followed ONLY the Old Testament and ignored the New your point might be valid.

Could you give some different intepretations to the following Koranic passages?

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Thanks.

Perhaps you mised it but most Islamic radicals are upper or middle class and well educated.

Also IF they were impoverished and oppressed then wouldn't liberating such people be a worthy goal?
Wouldn't showing a different way that does not involve murdering your neighbor be a good idea?
 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:18 AM
 
Location: North Cackelacky....in the hills.
19,556 posts, read 19,255,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
As will inadvertently living in the vicinity of those who espouse and promote the more violent radical versions of the Koran, thereby inviting the wrath of the indiscriminate IDF.
Well yes of course if you do nothing to stop terrorism and promote it through either your apathy or your actual open support expect to suffer the consequences....

when 70% of palestinians support murdering others through suicide bombing I would hazard a guess they aren't THAT innocent.
 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 7,056,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC View Post
2007 poll.

Quite shocking I would imagine that a full 70% of those polled support the murder of civilians using terror.

I find it shocking that 72% of Israelis support using nukes under different circumstances. Then again, I don't live over there and can understand that what I find shocking might not seem so shocking if I was stuck in the middle of it, on either side.
 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:22 AM
 
Location: North Cackelacky....in the hills.
19,556 posts, read 19,255,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
I find it shocking that 72% of Israelis support using nukes under different circumstances. Then again, I don't live over there and can understand that what I find shocking might not seem so shocking if I was stuck in the middle of it, on either side.
Really?

Why are you shocked?

I know if I was surrounded by those whose religion demands my death and whose governments openly proclaim their desire to destroy my entire nation I would support the use of nuclear weapons too....

And no,none of us know what it is like to live with the fear of never knowing whether the little boy who just boarded your bus is planning to kill everyone....
 
Old 11-20-2007, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 7,056,240 times
Reputation: 1197
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC View Post
Just for the record, most radical Muslims are upper or middle class, well educated and relatively well off.

And those radical nuts number roughly 20% of Muslims polled....thats quite a contingent of 'nuts'.

As to aggravating Muslims by the USA giving aid to Israel, are you suggesting other nations should dictate the USA's foreign policy?

Should their religious fanaticism and threats of terror be reason to give in to them?

No I am just saying we should not all act so surprised and think we are lily white as a nation when some of the nuts get upset and decide to learn how to fly airplanes and drive them into our buildings, that's all. We reap what we sow, right. I personally don't think it is worth the price...looking at our current situation....would love it if somebody could tell us how all the financial and military support we give Israel is helping us pragmatically today, outside of our shared Judeo-Christian heritages.
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