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View Poll Results: Access to health care is...
A necessity 143 87.73%
A privilege 20 12.27%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-21-2013, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,345,034 times
Reputation: 35920

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
I don't care whether you think it's hilarious or not. What I want is very plain and simple. I want to pay for myself. I want to purchase the coverage I need. I want to have money left out of my paycheck in order to save for my retirement. I want to contribute to other's welfare when I choose to do so. I want to file my taxes each year without being penalized for not patronizing specific businesses. I want some representation for my tax dollars instead of being preached at by politicians telling me what I need. I want some fiscal responsibility from my government. And most of all... I want people like you to stay the heck out of my life and quit thinking that you are the only one with an opinion that matters.....
You better start saving about 50% of your paycheck for hospitalization then. Start saving those shoeboxes too, to keep it in. Banks are a communist conspiracy. Your deposits are insured!
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:47 AM
 
Location: No Mask For Me This Time, Either
5,642 posts, read 5,059,592 times
Reputation: 6049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Sorry, bub, but I find the use of the word "retard" offensive, and I will point it out if I feel like it.
Hey, knock yourself out. Whatever floats your boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Thirdly, "I don't want to see people suffer, but" just doesn't quite come across as very compassionate. To replace welfare with charity, it is estimated that charitable giving would have to increase by a factor of 10. Welfare can be replaced by charity
IMO, most compassion is misplaced. I save mine for those who truly deserve it - those who suffer truly through no fault of their own or those who's misfortune was not caused by the failures of someone else who truly was responsible. To me, the fault and the guilt lies with a responsible party - e.g., the non-working mother who has six kids and no way to feed them. While I may feel sorry, the fault is with that woman and in no way obligates me to intervene. Someone else taking my money by force to assist is still robbery.

There are too many sad stories in the world and we can't fix them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I don't need a failed analogy about Mercedes this early in the morning. If you can't see the difference between health care and a Mercedes, I can't help you.
They're both consumer products that everyone might like to have, and no one is denied access to either. And they both need to be paid for exclusively by the consumer who enjoys their use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
OK, I even took time to read that. You really need to grow a thicker skin.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,501 posts, read 37,016,233 times
Reputation: 13972
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
LOL.. Mortgage Insurance is a complete DIFFERENT subject. Mortgage Insurance (otherwise known as PMI) covers the difference in the LTV. Most banks only loan at 80/20. If you don't put twenty percent down your going to pay PMI. Or didn't you know this?
I live in Canada, different rules.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,070,582 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
And now we find a lot of us paying insurance premiums for services we neither need nor want.. .
That is proof that you don't have Market health care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You will, along with everyone else that buys that insurance.... That is the way all insurance works. It spreads the cost to all of the subscribers,....
That is called propaganda and disinformation, since it is factually incorrect.

When you choose to educate yourself and understand the Principles of Actuarial Science, then you will know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
Regarding being forced to purchase ACA insurance, let me ask you, how do feel about being forced to buy auto insurance in order to drive, or being forced to buy home owners insurance in order to obtain a mortgage?
That is also called propaganda and disinformation, since it is factually incorrect.

First, only those who drive are required to obtain insurance? Wrong answer -- obtain proof of financial responsibility.

No one is required to purchase insurance....you may purchase a surety bond in lieu of insurance.

Second, obtaining a mortgage is a personal choice. There is no "federal" law or State law that compels insurance to obtain a mortgage. That is a condition placed by the financial institution issuing the mortgage.

Finally, another reason you have engaged in the spread of propaganda and disinformation, is due to the fact that you lied by omission.....Home-owner's insurance and auto insurance are Free Market....Obamacare is not.

Prior to Obamacare, no one in America had Free Market insurance.

Americans have not had Free Market insurance since 1933.

The American Hospital Association appointed itself of God of Healthcare and took away your Freedom of Choice.....oh, you're a Canadian.....took away the Freedom of Choice of all Americans.

When I purchase auto insurance, I decide what coverage I want, in what amounts, and with what deductibles.....not some freaking monopolistic Cartel like the American Hospital Association.

When I purchase home-owner's insurance, I decide what coverage I want, in what amounts, and with what deductibles.....not some freaking monopolistic Cartel like the American Hospital Association.

When choosing home-owner's insurance, I decide if I want $25,000 or $250,000 or $2.5 Million in personal liability coverage (in the event a guest is physically injured on the premises).

I decide....not the freaking American Hospital Association, and not the freaking government.

When choosing home-owner's insurance, I decide if I want a rider to cover my above-ground, or in-ground swimming pool.....and I am not forced to purchase coverage insuring a swimming pool that I do not have.

Christ-on-his-throne you people are worse than fanatical NAZI control freaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
It's a sad reality that a country which loves to tout itself as "exceptional" is the only country on earth where illness or injury can drive you into bankruptcy and saddle you with debts that you will never be able to pay off no matter how long you live.
Right...it would be better to live in Canada and die on a waiting list waiting for months and months and months for a procedure that Americans currently obtain in a matter of minutes or hours, or o

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
There are millions in the US with no healthcare, tell me....How many have you helped?
That would be more propaganda and disinfomatoin.

Every American has health care.

Not every American has an health plan....and the deceitful US Census Bureau acknowledged that many Americans can afford to pay for an health plan, but choose not to do so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Do you care to explain how a society that treats all citizens equally when it comes to health care is in any way selfish?
Read the following published by the Canadian Medical Association...

The risks of waiting for cardiac catheterization: a prospective study

However, only 37% of the procedures overall were completed within the requested waiting time.

Interpretation: Patients awaiting cardiac catheterization may experience major adverse events, such as death, myocardial infarction and congestive heart failure,
which may be preventable. Our findings provide a benchmark by which to measure the effect of increased capacity and prioritization schemes that allow earlier access for patients at higher risk, such as those with aortic stenosis and reduced left ventricular function.



...and now answer this question....

If the health care in Canada costs less.....then why does the Canadian government not have the financial resources to ensure those people are treated in a timely manner....within minutes or hours like Americans are......instead of letting them die?

Canada is stingy with its money.....Canada refuses to spend the money for the true cost of health care, and would rather let Canadians die on a waiting list.

You cannot have it both ways.......if health care in Canada costs less than in the US, then no one in Canada should ever die on a waiting list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Healthcare and good access to it here is recognized as a universal human RIGHT in Canada.
The risks of waiting for cardiac catheterization: a prospective study

However, only 37% of the procedures overall were completed within the requested waiting time.

Interpretation: Patients awaiting cardiac catheterization may experience major adverse events, such as death, myocardial infarction and congestive heart failure,
which may be preventable. Our findings provide a benchmark by which to measure the effect of increased capacity and prioritization schemes that allow earlier access for patients at higher risk, such as those with aortic stenosis and reduced left ventricular function.


So....dying while on long waiting list for treatment is a universal human RIGHT in Canada?

I'd rather live in Somalia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaninEGF View Post
I do believe it is morally right in a community perspective. In some things society needs should trump individual needs. For example....your local school district, fire dept, etc you pay taxes for a new school or to educate other kids that aren't your own.
That is incorrect.

The issue is not Morality, rather the issue is Opportunity Costs.

You can spend the time and money to train yourself and other family members as EMTs or paramedics, and then purchase all of the medical equipment you need, including an ambulance to transport you to medical facilities during emergencies......

...or you can pay a tax, avoid wasting your time and money, and spend that time and money you didn't waste on other things that you enjoy more.

Which is more beneficial to you?

That is Opportunity Costs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
When did WHO become the arbiter of what is a right and what is not?
Never, and it would have to be over my dead body.

Factually...

Mircea
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,016 posts, read 12,537,539 times
Reputation: 9030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
So not only do you as a citizen, albeit perhaps a currently uninsured one, have access to the country's common bounty, but now you want access to my share of the bounty as well to subsidize that which you cannot (or will not) provide for yourself? Just because I've either worked harder, smarter, or managed my life better and have a little more?

"Rights" do not include that which must be paid for by others. The function of government is not to provide for every need and want when means exist for people to provide for themselves. How far does your vision of healthcare extend? Athlete's foot? Hearing aids? Ingrown nails? What about other things in life? I NEED to get to work and have a flat tire. Shall I expect the government to not only provide the tire but mount it for me as well? After all, I go to work and pay taxes on my earnings, so it's in the government's interest to see that I get to work, right?

Stop worrying and whining about "fair". Life's not fair. Get over it.
I never said anything about fairness. It's irrelevant in any case as it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I find it amusing that you bring up "Hearing aids". I have two cochlear implants thanks to our universal healthcare system. The cost to the system for those was $150,000. What a blessing it is to live in a country that cares enough about my ability to hear than they will expend that amount of resources making sure that I can hear.

Your post is nothing more than the old tired out right wing rant that I have heard repeated over and over again all of my life. It really is just dumb. Our entire western civilizations are built on and totally dependent upon many things that we as a society have decided to supply to the citizens as a universal benefit. Education, transportation and infrastructure of all sorts are universal benefits for the people of the country. Do you really think that Canadians are not as good workers or as ambitious as Americans because we have security of healthcare?

What you and the rest of right wing Americans fail to either see or to understand is that a universal healthcare scheme like the rest of the western democracies have is essential in so many ways. Firstly, it's essential in controlling healthcare costs. Our costs per capita for COMPLETE cradle to grave healthcare is about half of what the USA government already spends in their mish mash of confusing and poorly delivered programmes. That is not including the trillions of dollars spent on insurance premiums, co pays and direct paying patients. We get something like 8 times the results for every dollar spent in the medical system. Why would anyone open a factory in the USA when just across the border in Ontario they can operate at such a lower cost due to healthcare costs alone? It costs a vehicle maker on average $1500 MORE per car to produce them in the USA IN HEALTHCARE COSTS ALONE!!!!!!!! THE RIGHT WING WHO'S MAIN MISSION IN LIFE IS TO PROTECT THE INTERESTS OF BIG BUSINESS PROVES THEMSELVES INCOMPETENT IN THAT THEY CAN'T SEE OR REALIZE THE GREAT BOON TO BUSINESS UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE IS.

The lack of a universal plan causes great instability all through the society. When there is no security of the people's most basic needs then the country is always half crazy and all you have to do is to look at the USA to see that. The country is very unstable. Americans are a miserable, complaining and unhappy bunch of people. Whining, complaining and crying about the poor, the rich and any and all different segments of the society is never ending and truly pathetic.

In your way you can live on your little patch in the woods, travel on your own trails, educate your own kids, fight you own battles, put out your own fires, be your own police officer and BE that self sufficient island unto yourself. Go ahead, do It, make all of our days!!!! Just don't tell me I have to live that way.
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,222,269 times
Reputation: 27718
The problem is that Obamacare is not addressing rising costs.
That is why many don't have insurance...high premium costs.
That is why many don't go to the doctor..high visit costs.
That is why many don't get their prescriptions..high medicine costs.

Obamacare never addresses cost. Instead we're just socializing the payments of rising costs.

This is a lose/lose proposition here as costs will continue to rise and you will be made to pay for it.
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
3,999 posts, read 4,124,944 times
Reputation: 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You better start saving about 50% of your paycheck for hospitalization then. Start saving those shoeboxes too, to keep it in. Banks are a communist conspiracy. Your deposits are insured!
Doesn't leave me much now does it, because you, your lefty friends and your big government have already had your hands in MY POCKET and taken the other half!
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:07 AM
 
1,696 posts, read 1,708,781 times
Reputation: 1450
So far 'necessity' is outpolling 'privilege' 10 to 1.

I think we have an answer.
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
3,999 posts, read 4,124,944 times
Reputation: 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I live in Canada, different rules.
Admittedly, I know nothing about lending in Canada... but I've got to ask then... why so involved here when you don't have a dog in this fight? Just like watching the carnage? Glad we could be so entertaining...
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,222,269 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fancy-Schmancy View Post
So far 'necessity' is outpolling 'privilege' 10 to 1.

I think we have an answer.
Well everyone has access to health care, even the illegals.

It's paying the price that's the issue, not access.
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