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So basically Dave Ramsey is right and you can't refute what he said but you don't like what he said one bit so you'll just put on some stupid act like you're actually intelligent. Got it.
Isnt that what liberals do? Denounce the opponent, call him names, and then pompously proclaim their own superiority with dealing with the original argument?
What's so hard to understand how insurance works? What's sh hard to understand actuarial tables? What is difficult for someone claiming to be expert in fields which require good understanding of math, such as the person to whom you are responding claims, to do the math? Instead, good ideologue that he is, I calls names rather than argue on merit.
PS just for fun I did some fooling around on California's ACA exchange, and my oh my! A retired couple getting 36,000 in social security can get the super gold plan (best of breed) for 374 a month, after applying the government (aka taxpayer) subsidy of over 1300 a month. Good for the retired couple, not good for "the rich" meaning anyone who is making a decent living.
ACA is falling apart, and it will be dismantled once people start digging into the numbers.
It's the same argument that is made for a flat tax here, but reverse.
10% of my 10k hurts me more than 10% of our 250k.
That may or may not be true (COL in different areas varies widely) but it doesn't stop the European countries from taxing very regressively all the same, does it?
I donate substantially to the United Way and my local food bank...both money and time.
We have to pay taxes to be members of a functioning society. During the depression we had an ideological shift on what the word "Freedom" really means. Prior to the depression, "Freedom" meant being able to do as you please with nothing to worry about or no one to worry about you...basically uninhibited freedom. After the depression, the word freedom took on a new meaning. Freedom then and now, really means "Freedom FROM worry....or security." Having security is the truest measure of freedom in modern societies.
It really isn't productive to think of a tax as something that is stolen from you, but a price we pay for security. You have to pay a portion of your income so that society may function appropriately. Providing healthcare for our entire citizenry provides the highest level of economic freedom. To provide healthcare is one of the most decent things our country can do for our citizens. Just as providing an exceptional interstate system is a good thing. Monitoring the safety of our food is a good thing. Providing safe flying conditions for our commerican airline infrastructure is a good thing. All of these are funded by the monies that are "stolen" from you.
Would you have it differently? There are lots of countries out there that function in a much more liberatarian way that would probably love to have you.
Our income derives from our labor, which is the only thing any of us has to sell. I begin with the premise that what we derive from our labor is ours. That said, there is a price of admission for living in our country, our state, our local community. But what should that price be? And at what point have we become slaves as more and more of the receipts from our labor go to pay those prices of admission? My own opinion is that when our total tax exceeds 50% of our income, then we are well on our way to becoming slaves.
But what he did not mention is this. Those Americans he is calling "freeloaders" are working Americans who make around $17,000 a year. These Americans must pay for rent, electricity, phone service, car maintenance, car insurance, buy gasoline, buy food, buy clothes, ex.ex.
How can you afford to live on $17,000 a year paying federal taxes? You can't.
(And he hid the fact those Americans pay sales tax and other taxes.).
You are absolutely right about the parts I bolded. I too tire of the ideologue right who always fail to take into account that everyone pays taxes of various sorts all the time - sales tax, telephone tax, utilities tax, excise tax, all up and down the line.
Which is why we DO need serious and comprehensive tax reform.
Isnt that what liberals do? Denounce the opponent, call him names, and then pompously proclaim their own superiority with dealing with the original argument?
What's so hard to understand how insurance works? What's sh hard to understand actuarial tables? What is difficult for someone claiming to be expert in fields which require good understanding of math, such as the person to whom you are responding claims, to do the math? Instead, good ideologue that he is, I calls names rather than argue on merit.
PS just for fun I did some fooling around on California's ACA exchange, and my oh my! A retired couple getting 36,000 in social security can get the super gold plan (best of breed) for 374 a month, after applying the government (aka taxpayer) subsidy of over 1300 a month. Good for the retired couple, not good for "the rich" meaning anyone who is making a decent living.
ACA is falling apart, and it will be dismantled once people start digging into the numbers.
Nobody getting Medicare can get an ACA plan. That is virtually all SS recipients. It is in fact illegal to offer an ACA plan to a Medicare recipient.
ACA obviously favors older and poorer - disfavors the young and the rich. Nothing new about that.
....that the government should provide medical insurance for all...
People who do not understand insurance often say that.
Let's start with the legal definition of "insurance" used by the US Supreme Court, which you can find in Black's Law Dictionary....
Insurance is a contract whereby for a stipulated consideration, one party undertakes to compensate the other for loss on a specific subject by specified perils.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkennyn
I'm going to assume you probably either won't click or won't comprehend the graphs....
I comprehend the graphs just fine.....but it would appear that you do not understand the graphs.
"This is the fundamental fact of American health care: We pay much, much more than other countries do for the exact same things."
That statement is false and misleading for any number of reasons, but then Ezra Klein wrote it, so there's no shock there.
Here's some truthful factual information...
There are 1,539 separately functioning economies in the united States.
In some of those 1,539 separately functioning economies, if you are single and have an annual income of $9,500 then you are barred from qualifying for HUD Section 8 Housing.
However, as strange as it may be.....in some of the 1,539 separately functioning economies, if you are single you are allowed to have an annual income of $53,400 and you can move into your HUD Section 8 housing tomorrow.
Explain to everyone why those facts are true.....maybe you can get Ezra Klein to show what a Big Brain he has and help you explain it...
...because if you cannot explain it, then you cannot comprehend the graphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkennyn
Bypass Surgery- US 73,420. UK- 14,117
Angioplasty- US 28,182. UK- 14,336
Hip Replacement-US 40,364. UK-11,889
Knee Replacement- US 25,637 UK-7833
Appendectomy-US 13,851. UK 3408
Hospital cost per day--US: 4287 Spain 476
MRI: US-1121 UK 335 Spain 230
Nexium: US 202 UK 32 Spain 18
($ USD)
Where did that come from? Uh, the report. Are you aware that Britain uses the Pound Sterling? Are you aware that the Pound Sterling is of greater value than the $ USD? Did you know that as of now if you wished to buy 1 British Pound, you will have to spend $1.62?
Did you know that the Euro is greater in value than the $ USD? Did you know that to buy 1 Euro, you will need to spend $1.38?
Why don't you get with Herr Klein and recalculate the costs based on Purchasing Power Parity, which will not only reflect the exchange rates properly in a way that is not so lying and deceitful, and which also factors in things like Cost-of-Living, and then get back to us?
Can you do that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkennyn
God...that all must hurt.
It doesn't hurt nearly as bad as this......
Last update 25.10.11 Extracted on 06.01.13 Source of Data Eurostat UNIT Euro per inhabitant ICHA_HC Health care expenditure ICHA_HP All providers of health care
UNIT Euro per inhabitant ICHA_HF Private household out-of-pocket expenditure
Romania .......63.95 Germany....... 403.33 United States....... 697.13
Norway .......805.54 Switzerland....... 1,590.18
Source: Database EuroStat: The European Commission of the European Union.
You see.....Klein has always had access to Health Care Data from EuroStat, published by the European Commission of the European Union...
...but Klein is liar and he would never turn you onto the truth or reality, because, well, then he couldn't lie.
You see......the European Commission of the European Union has taken into account the exchange rates between member-States, especially those that do not use the Euro, and also factored in the Cost-of-Living through Purchasing Power Parity.
The data from Eurostat --- the European Commission of the European Union -- and not from a wonkblog of some lying sack of runny excrement also proves something your own government says....
"As personal income increases, people demand more and better goods and services, including health care. This means that holding other factors constant, as higher personal income increases the quantity and quality of care demanded, overall health care spending increases as well. GDP is a good indicator of the effect of increasing income on health care spending."
[bold and underline emphasis mine]
Source: United States Government General Accounting Office, GAO-13-281 PPACA and the Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, page 33.
You see....it doesn't matter what you believe or what you want to believe, at the end of the day, the Laws of Economics reign supreme.
You have no power of those laws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkennyn
I'll give you the only math that matters.
The USA spends over 8k per person for healthcare and a much higher portion of our GDP.
The UK has comparable healthcare rates and a higher ranking on the WHO's scale yet they spend 3200 per person. Thats a savings of 4800 per person.
There your go.....Mathematically speaking with regards to healthcare expenditure and quality UK>USA
YAY MATH!!!
...if Euro-States are spending more money on Social Services related to health care than the US, then how is health care in Euro-States cheaper or more affordable?
Let's go back to the EuroStat data from the European Commission of the European Union....
UNIT Euro per inhabitant ICHA_HF General government
Germany .......2,537.44 United States....... 2,657.86
So, if Germany is spending $2 on social services related to health care for every $1 spent on health care, while the US spends $0.55..........
....then the total amount spent by
...Germany........is 7,611 per person
...US................is 4,068 per person
Ooops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkennyn
My question is this...If it is so impossible...such a unicorn...why are other countries so successful at driving down costs?
Mortality on the waiting list for coronary artery bypass grafting: incidence and risk factors
BACKGROUND: Insufficient capacity for coronary artery bypass grafting results in waiting times before operation, prioritization of patients and, ultimately, death on the waiting list. We aimed to calculate waiting list mortality and to identify risk factors for death on the waiting list.
Those Swedish people died....on a waiting list.....for coronary by-pass surgery.
According to you, uh, that is "successful."
What you fail to recognize or understand, is that spending less does not equal costing less.
Coronary artery by-pass costs the same in every single State on this Earth.
The numbers? The numbers will vary due to things like GDP, exchange rate, PPP, and so on.
But the cost is always the same.
Sweden refused to pay the cost of health care....instead, the government of Sweden chose to spend less, and by spending less, the government created shortages of medical doctors, medical staff, medical facilities, medical equipment, medical space (like operating rooms) and medicines...
...and because the Swedish government chose to spend less, instead of paying the true cost, those people died.
Lung cancer treatment waiting times and tumour growth.
Therefore, 21% of potentially curable patients became incurable on the waiting list.
That is Britain and the vaunted NHS....those people died.... on a waiting list...and you claim Britain is "successful."
Same story.
Britain refused to pay the cost of health care....instead, the British government chose to spend less, and by spending less, the government created shortages of medical doctors, medical staff, medical facilities, medical equipment, medical space (like operating rooms) and medicines...
...and because the British government chose to spend less, instead of paying the true cost, those people died.
The risks of waiting for cardiac catheterization: a prospective study
However, only 37% of the procedures overall were completed within the requested waiting time.
Interpretation: Patients awaiting cardiac catheterization may experience major adverse events, such as death,...
That's Canada.....where people die on waiting lists waiting for a procedure that you as an American would get in matter of minutes or hours.
Same story.
The Canadian government blatantly refused to pay the cost of health care....instead, the Canadian government chose to spend less, and by spending less, the government created shortages of medical doctors, medical staff, medical facilities, medical equipment, medical space (like operating rooms) and medicines...
...and because the Canadian government chose to spend less, instead of paying the true cost, those people died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkennyn
Why does an MRI cost 3,000 dollars in the USA but 150 in Belgium?
You mean an MRI scan? Supply & Demand....get over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkennyn
Why does one night in an American hospital room cost the same as 7.2 nights in a Finnish hospital room?
You tell me.....
The Christ Hospital
2139 Auburn Ave.
513-585-2000
thechristhospital.com
* Additional Features: All-private birthing suites and post-partum rooms; feng sui and hydrotherapy birthing suites; nursing staff with an average 20 years experience; new interactive TV system; dine-on-demand room service; updated infant security system; no restrictions on visitation hours (some limitations may be in place during flu season); neonatologists on call 24 hours; Special Care Nursery with individualized bed space that can be personalized
Atrium Medical Center’s Family Birth Center
1 Medical Center Dr., Middletown
513-424-2111
atriummedcenter.org
* Children permitted in delivery room with mother’s approval. Additional Features: Board-certified doctors and nurses experienced in obstetrics, neonatal care, including nursery and fetal monitoring. Contemporary birthing suites include flat-screen TVs,On-Demand movies and bathrooms with showers and jet tubs. Babies may stay in nursery or “room” with mom; fold-out sofas for overnight guests. Prenatal services and childbirth education classes available.
....you think hospital rooms in Finland have jet tubs and flat screen TVs and feng shui?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnwmdk
Any economist can tell you that economics is the study of human behavior, not just equations and complex theories.
Well, it's a little more complex than that.
There are three facets or fields of study, and that is the pure math, then human behavior, and then that area that mixes math with human behavior.
The latter would be something like Price Elasticity.
In terms of pure math, I can tell you the Price Elasticity for anything. What I cannot tell you is when.
"When" is predicated entirely on human behavior, and they have models for that, but they are not very accurate, since they are based on human behavior.
Raise the price of your product or service, and I'll tell you how much you will lose in revenues and profits (not the same thing) or not, but I cannot tell you when you will start losing/gaining....I wouldn't even attempt it, but lots of others would (to me it's a futile waste of time.....it's enough to know the financial impact).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq
Pay minimum balances on all accounts other than your highest interest rate account. Put all extra money into your highest interest rate. Doing that saves you the most money in the long term. To use hard numbers, let's assume you have four pieces of debt.
$10,000 at 4% APR
$15,000 at 7% APR
$30,000 at 8% APR
$50,000 at 10% APR
Let's assume you have a $15/mo minimum payment on each of the four loans, and that you have a total of $1,000/mo to put towards debt repayment. That means you have $940/mo to put towards repayment above and beyond minimum payments. Using Dave's method you would put that $940/mo initially towards the $10,000 loan, once that is paid off, put $955/mo towards the $15,000 loan, etc..
Doing that means you would pay a total of $121,863 in interest over the lifetime repayment of all four loans.
Now take the alternative method. Pay the highest interest rate first. Put that extra $940/mo towards the $50,000 loan first, once that is paid off put the now $955/mo towards the $30,000 loan, etc. Doing this would mean you only pay a total of $67,479 in interest in the lifetime payback of the loans.
In just this simple example following Dave Ramsey's method makes you pay $54,383 more in interest than you would if you follow a smarter plan. PM me and I can send you an excel spreadsheet that is set up to do this math for you.
That's the point I was trying to make about Plasma TVs and McMansions.
I really don't care about personal finance and investing......I'm glad you're into it, because some of these people need a lot of help. A lot of help. And they just don't know or understand how to make the best choices and benefit from it, and you gave a great example there.
People who do not understand insurance often say that.
Let's start with the legal definition of "insurance" used by the US Supreme Court, which you can find in Black's Law Dictionary....
Insurance is a contract whereby for a stipulated consideration, one party undertakes to compensate the other for loss on a specific subject by specified perils.
I comprehend the graphs just fine.....but it would appear that you do not understand the graphs.
"This is the fundamental fact of American health care: We pay much, much more than other countries do for the exact same things."
That statement is false and misleading for any number of reasons, but then Ezra Klein wrote it, so there's no shock there.
Here's some truthful factual information...
There are 1,539 separately functioning economies in the united States.
In some of those 1,539 separately functioning economies, if you are single and have an annual income of $9,500 then you are barred from qualifying for HUD Section 8 Housing.
However, as strange as it may be.....in some of the 1,539 separately functioning economies, if you are single you are allowed to have an annual income of $53,400 and you can move into your HUD Section 8 housing tomorrow.
Explain to everyone why those facts are true.....maybe you can get Ezra Klein to show what a Big Brain he has and help you explain it...
...because if you cannot explain it, then you cannot comprehend the graphs.
($ USD)
Where did that come from? Uh, the report. Are you aware that Britain uses the Pound Sterling? Are you aware that the Pound Sterling is of greater value than the $ USD? Did you know that as of now if you wished to buy 1 British Pound, you will have to spend $1.62?
Did you know that the Euro is greater in value than the $ USD? Did you know that to buy 1 Euro, you will need to spend $1.38?
Why don't you get with Herr Klein and recalculate the costs based on Purchasing Power Parity, which will not only reflect the exchange rates properly in a way that is not so lying and deceitful, and which also factors in things like Cost-of-Living, and then get back to us?
Can you do that?
It doesn't hurt nearly as bad as this......
Last update 25.10.11 Extracted on 06.01.13 Source of Data Eurostat UNIT Euro per inhabitant ICHA_HC Health care expenditure ICHA_HP All providers of health care
UNIT Euro per inhabitant ICHA_HF Private household out-of-pocket expenditure
Romania .......63.95 Germany....... 403.33 United States....... 697.13
Norway .......805.54 Switzerland....... 1,590.18
Source: Database EuroStat: The European Commission of the European Union.
You see.....Klein has always had access to Health Care Data from EuroStat, published by the European Commission of the European Union...
...but Klein is liar and he would never turn you onto the truth or reality, because, well, then he couldn't lie.
You see......the European Commission of the European Union has taken into account the exchange rates between member-States, especially those that do not use the Euro, and also factored in the Cost-of-Living through Purchasing Power Parity.
The data from Eurostat --- the European Commission of the European Union -- and not from a wonkblog of some lying sack of runny excrement also proves something your own government says....
"As personal income increases, people demand more and better goods and services, including health care. This means that holding other factors constant, as higher personal income increases the quantity and quality of care demanded, overall health care spending increases as well. GDP is a good indicator of the effect of increasing income on health care spending."
[bold and underline emphasis mine]
Source: United States Government General Accounting Office, GAO-13-281 PPACA and the Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, page 33.
You see....it doesn't matter what you believe or what you want to believe, at the end of the day, the Laws of Economics reign supreme.
You have no power of those laws.
...if Euro-States are spending more money on Social Services related to health care than the US, then how is health care in Euro-States cheaper or more affordable?
Let's go back to the EuroStat data from the European Commission of the European Union....
UNIT Euro per inhabitant ICHA_HF General government
Germany .......2,537.44 United States....... 2,657.86
So, if Germany is spending $2 on social services related to health care for every $1 spent on health care, while the US spends $0.55..........
....then the total amount spent by
...Germany........is 7,611 per person
...US................is 4,068 per person
Ooops.
Mortality on the waiting list for coronary artery bypass grafting: incidence and risk factors
BACKGROUND: Insufficient capacity for coronary artery bypass grafting results in waiting times before operation, prioritization of patients and, ultimately, death on the waiting list. We aimed to calculate waiting list mortality and to identify risk factors for death on the waiting list.
Those Swedish people died....on a waiting list.....for coronary by-pass surgery.
According to you, uh, that is "successful."
What you fail to recognize or understand, is that spending less does not equal costing less.
Coronary artery by-pass costs the same in every single State on this Earth.
The numbers? The numbers will vary due to things like GDP, exchange rate, PPP, and so on.
But the cost is always the same.
Sweden refused to pay the cost of health care....instead, the government of Sweden chose to spend less, and by spending less, the government created shortages of medical doctors, medical staff, medical facilities, medical equipment, medical space (like operating rooms) and medicines...
...and because the Swedish government chose to spend less, instead of paying the true cost, those people died.
Lung cancer treatment waiting times and tumour growth.
Therefore, 21% of potentially curable patients became incurable on the waiting list.
That is Britain and the vaunted NHS....those people died.... on a waiting list...and you claim Britain is "successful."
Same story.
Britain refused to pay the cost of health care....instead, the British government chose to spend less, and by spending less, the government created shortages of medical doctors, medical staff, medical facilities, medical equipment, medical space (like operating rooms) and medicines...
...and because the British government chose to spend less, instead of paying the true cost, those people died.
The risks of waiting for cardiac catheterization: a prospective study
However, only 37% of the procedures overall were completed within the requested waiting time.
Interpretation: Patients awaiting cardiac catheterization may experience major adverse events, such as death,...
That's Canada.....where people die on waiting lists waiting for a procedure that you as an American would get in matter of minutes or hours.
Same story.
The Canadian government blatantly refused to pay the cost of health care....instead, the Canadian government chose to spend less, and by spending less, the government created shortages of medical doctors, medical staff, medical facilities, medical equipment, medical space (like operating rooms) and medicines...
...and because the Canadian government chose to spend less, instead of paying the true cost, those people died.
You mean an MRI scan? Supply & Demand....get over it.
You tell me.....
The Christ Hospital
2139 Auburn Ave.
513-585-2000
thechristhospital.com
* Additional Features: All-private birthing suites and post-partum rooms; feng sui and hydrotherapy birthing suites; nursing staff with an average 20 years experience; new interactive TV system; dine-on-demand room service; updated infant security system; no restrictions on visitation hours (some limitations may be in place during flu season); neonatologists on call 24 hours; Special Care Nursery with individualized bed space that can be personalized
Atrium Medical Center’s Family Birth Center
1 Medical Center Dr., Middletown
513-424-2111
atriummedcenter.org
* Children permitted in delivery room with mother’s approval. Additional Features: Board-certified doctors and nurses experienced in obstetrics, neonatal care, including nursery and fetal monitoring. Contemporary birthing suites include flat-screen TVs,On-Demand movies and bathrooms with showers and jet tubs. Babies may stay in nursery or “room” with mom; fold-out sofas for overnight guests. Prenatal services and childbirth education classes available.
....you think hospital rooms in Finland have jet tubs and flat screen TVs and feng shui?
Well, it's a little more complex than that.
There are three facets or fields of study, and that is the pure math, then human behavior, and then that area that mixes math with human behavior.
The latter would be something like Price Elasticity.
In terms of pure math, I can tell you the Price Elasticity for anything. What I cannot tell you is when.
"When" is predicated entirely on human behavior, and they have models for that, but they are not very accurate, since they are based on human behavior.
Raise the price of your product or service, and I'll tell you how much you will lose in revenues and profits (not the same thing) or not, but I cannot tell you when you will start losing/gaining....I wouldn't even attempt it, but lots of others would (to me it's a futile waste of time.....it's enough to know the financial impact).
That's the point I was trying to make about Plasma TVs and McMansions.
I really don't care about personal finance and investing......I'm glad you're into it, because some of these people need a lot of help. A lot of help. And they just don't know or understand how to make the best choices and benefit from it, and you gave a great example there.
Not escaping...
Mircea
For all of this, all that you've basically said is that we our healthcare is better, we spend less, all graphs/charts lie except for those that support your point of view, and that Finland sucks because it's birthing rooms aren't tantamount to spa's...and of course you've thrown a series of red herrings and straw men in there for good measure.
A couple points. The figures in the price comparisons I cited are adjusted for US dollars...Not GBP or Euro's so you can quell that little fire.
The definition of insurance isn't relevant. We all know what is meant when discussing insurance.
The little "horror stories" you've mined about universal healthcare systems throughout the world are fun and all but they aren't nearly as prevalent as people like you would hope they are. Further...I went through your previous posts as well...Do you just copy and paste? Both myself and my family used NHS...trust me...it aint' that bad.
Sure the NHS has issues...so does literally every facet of every industry that has ever or will ever exist.
The fact of the matter is this...it treats more people...cheaper. Point. Blank.
I am amazed you fight these obvious facts. Just check the final chart on the overall cost. And we certainly do not get the best or nearly that result.
LOL, you fell for that?
Here, let me clue you in: "Price is not the same as cost".
I love these people who claim that an MRI costs less in France. NOBODY can actually account for the costs. Nobody. Least of the all the French, who absolutely DO NOT want the actual cost of anything known. The actual costs of EVERYTHING are spread over a variety of budgets, each one lumped into other and overlapping budgets, so that NOTHING can be accurately accounted for. This is true of EVERY socialized system.
I asked the question, so you'd bring up your little linky-dinks. I'm sorry, but the author did little research. He can't untangle the accounting, so he does precisely what you do... Just call the "price" the "cost".
I can give a half dozen real life examples of how completely and utterly absurd it is to just take this stuff at face value.
So, again: Show me the TRUE costs... It means you have to detangle the insane system of accounting... and I know you cannot.
Here's a simple example: Company A has 4 offices in 4 cities - Portland, Dallas, Denver, and Kansas City. They have a total of 80 employees. Some offices are owned, some are leased. The company has revenues of 16 million. It pays a total of 3 million a year for office space. It pays out 7 million a year in salaries.
How much does each employee cost in Kansas City?
You have no idea. Nor do you, nor ANYONE have any idea what services cost in ANY of the countries with socialized medicine. Their budgeting, accounting, and reporting are specifically designed to make analysis IMPOSSIBLE.
Yet, here you are. Telling me YOU know.
Ain't that amazing.
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