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Old 11-21-2007, 08:36 AM
 
1,408 posts, read 4,444,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Do you have a tendency to blame people for their own situations?
Choosing the words carefully...I'm awfully tired of people blaming others for their own situations, yes!
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Old 11-21-2007, 09:27 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,897,745 times
Reputation: 2989
I'm awfully tired of how our "niceness" and liberal "kindness" (I graduated from HS in 1966--the "Viet Nam era") has resulted in as much anger, frustration, and "entitlement" as it has in any sense of gratitude. The huge liberal "sweep" across society that began in my teenage years sought, basically, to remove all the "hard edges" from life. No one, we thought, REGARDLESS of his own personal conduct, should ever have to suffer, or "want", or be judged. It just doesn't work. Human beings don't operate that way.

We now have a society in which it's virtually impossible to judge ANY behavior as "bad". Every "bad guy" is really a victim--of someone, or some situation. When I was a child, we had winos, bums, derelicts, and hoboes. These were the people in society who'd gotten themselves into a "mess".
These people are still around--but now they're "victims". It's OUR fault they're in that "mess". It's OUR fault that illegals are in their situation, OUR fault that the Iraqis are blowing each other up daily, OUR fault that inner-city teenagers have a 70% pregnancy rate, OUR fault that kids join gangs. All these people have been "victimized"...by US...and are the way they are because of US, not because of their own bad choices.

No one wants to go back to the "bad old days" of racism, sexism, etc. Yet, at the same time, we need SOME faint vestige of personal responsibility. I don't have all the answers, but I do know that being overly "nice" to people, and failing to hold them accountable for their OWN behavior, makes no more sense than spoiling your own child. You don't end up with a nice, respectable kid by over-indulging him..you end up with a distrespectful, self-centered monster. And, in the final irony, this "monster" of a kid will resent you even MORE than if you'd been strict....such is the irony of the human spirit.
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Old 11-21-2007, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,489 posts, read 20,810,912 times
Reputation: 13751
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm awfully tired of how our "niceness" and liberal "kindness" (I graduated from HS in 1966--the "Viet Nam era") has resulted in as much anger, frustration, and "entitlement" as it has in any sense of gratitude. The huge liberal "sweep" across society that began in my teenage years sought, basically, to remove all the "hard edges" from life. No one, we thought, REGARDLESS of his own personal conduct, should ever have to suffer, or "want", or be judged. It just doesn't work. Human beings don't operate that way.

We now have a society in which it's virtually impossible to judge ANY behavior as "bad". Every "bad guy" is really a victim--of someone, or some situation. When I was a child, we had winos, bums, derelicts, and hoboes. These were the people in society who'd gotten themselves into a "mess".
These people are still around--but now they're "victims". It's OUR fault they're in that "mess". It's OUR fault that illegals are in their situation, OUR fault that the Iraqis are blowing each other up daily, OUR fault that inner-city teenagers have a 70% pregnancy rate, OUR fault that kids join gangs. All these people have been "victimized"...by US...and are the way they are because of US, not because of their own bad choices.

No one wants to go back to the "bad old days" of racism, sexism, etc. Yet, at the same time, we need SOME faint vestige of personal responsibility. I don't have all the answers, but I do know that being overly "nice" to people, and failing to hold them accountable for their OWN behavior, makes no more sense than spoiling your own child. You don't end up with a nice, respectable kid by over-indulging him..you end up with a distrespectful, self-centered monster. And, in the final irony, this "monster" of a kid will resent you even MORE than if you'd been strict....such is the irony of the human spirit.
Good post. A wise man once said "We start out trying to be good; we settle for being well-behaved."

Last edited by Yeledaf; 11-21-2007 at 10:08 AM..
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Old 11-21-2007, 10:08 AM
 
7,139 posts, read 13,146,863 times
Reputation: 2327
Don't forget the omnipresent "disease" concept, macmeal, that the Psychobabbles have shoved down our throats. Any and all character flaws are now a convenient "disease". And even some of those DSM-IV diseases have now moved up to become "normal, social behavior".
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Old 11-21-2007, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,489 posts, read 20,810,912 times
Reputation: 13751
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilypad View Post
Don't forget the omnipresent "disease" concept, macmeal, that the Psychobabbles have shoved down our throats. Any and all character flaws are now a convenient "disease". And even some of those disease have now moved up to become "normal, social behavior".
You're right there. I used to be a babbling drunk with a poor memory. Now I'm mnemonically-challenged and suffering from alcohol-induced glossolalia.
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Old 11-21-2007, 10:18 AM
 
7,139 posts, read 13,146,863 times
Reputation: 2327
Good one, LOL, Yeledaf!! Pass Go and collect your disability!
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:42 PM
 
11,127 posts, read 12,644,396 times
Reputation: 3676
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm awfully tired of how our "niceness" and liberal "kindness" (I graduated from HS in 1966--the "Viet Nam era") has resulted in as much anger, frustration, and "entitlement" as it has in any sense of gratitude. The huge liberal "sweep" across society that began in my teenage years sought, basically, to remove all the "hard edges" from life. No one, we thought, REGARDLESS of his own personal conduct, should ever have to suffer, or "want", or be judged. It just doesn't work. Human beings don't operate that way.

We now have a society in which it's virtually impossible to judge ANY behavior as "bad". Every "bad guy" is really a victim--of someone, or some situation. When I was a child, we had winos, bums, derelicts, and hoboes. These were the people in society who'd gotten themselves into a "mess".
These people are still around--but now they're "victims". It's OUR fault they're in that "mess". It's OUR fault that illegals are in their situation, OUR fault that the Iraqis are blowing each other up daily, OUR fault that inner-city teenagers have a 70% pregnancy rate, OUR fault that kids join gangs. All these people have been "victimized"...by US...and are the way they are because of US, not because of their own bad choices.

No one wants to go back to the "bad old days" of racism, sexism, etc. Yet, at the same time, we need SOME faint vestige of personal responsibility. I don't have all the answers, but I do know that being overly "nice" to people, and failing to hold them accountable for their OWN behavior, makes no more sense than spoiling your own child. You don't end up with a nice, respectable kid by over-indulging him..you end up with a distrespectful, self-centered monster. And, in the final irony, this "monster" of a kid will resent you even MORE than if you'd been strict....such is the irony of the human spirit.
While I agree with pretty much all you say on this and hold the notion that personal responsibility is first and foremost there is also the question of what, if anything, is societies responsibility to those individuals who do work within the confines of what society deems as, proper or correct behavior? Do we also not have a responsibility to each other on some level?

The kumbya of communism clearly does not work for the fact that it is contrary in part to human nature. Humans will always pine for what they don't have and when they don't get it they become unhappy and disgruntled. The other side of this of course is that pure capitalism, right makes right, anarchy, or any system dependent solely upon the individual's responsibility does not work either. Unlike the Spartans we do not throw babies off a cliff because they are not fit, there has to be some level of responsibility of the society to its people as much as the people to society.

I'm not sure where exactly this balance lies between the two other than whatever works for people. Perhaps this is why globally, a socialist type system is the most prevalent?
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:59 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,897,745 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
You're right there. I used to be a babbling drunk with a poor memory. Now I'm mnemonically-challenged and suffering from alcohol-induced glossolalia.
I used to work with a guy who was perpetually late showing up--car trouble, lost keys, all sorts of "complications", made it so that he just couldn't be there on time. I just thought he was sort of a "flake"--until I found out that he was "chronologically challenged"....
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:05 PM
 
7,380 posts, read 6,703,743 times
Reputation: 1251
I believe in some social responsibility to the extent that one should help provide for those who help themselves, not the "new" social responsibility which states that some should use the government to force others to provide for those they deem needy.
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:05 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,897,745 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
While I agree with pretty much all you say on this and hold the notion that personal responsibility is first and foremost there is also the question of what, if anything, is societies responsibility to those individuals who do work within the confines of what society deems as, proper or correct behavior? Do we also not have a responsibility to each other on some level?

The kumbya of communism clearly does not work for the fact that it is contrary in part to human nature. Humans will always pine for what they don't have and when they don't get it they become unhappy and disgruntled. The other side of this of course is that pure capitalism, right makes right, anarchy, or any system dependent solely upon the individual's responsibility does not work either. Unlike the Spartans we do not throw babies off a cliff because they are not fit, there has to be some level of responsibility of the society to its people as much as the people to society.

I'm not sure where exactly this balance lies between the two other than whatever works for people. Perhaps this is why globally, a socialist type system is the most prevalent?
I think you're on to something there. Prosperity definitely works best when ruthless people are "turned loose" in a dog-eat-dog capitalist free-for-all. We need to keep the notion of that "cut-throat competition" going if we're going to stay solvent in a hostile world.

HOWEVER--human decency and kindness dictates that we VOLUNTARILY soften the hard edges with some charitable kindness (mild, limited forms of socialism). This ensures we will remain a "decent" society. The danger is that these concessions to kindness must be carefully monitored, so that they don't become taken for granted as "entitlements"..(which, I think, is a lot of our problem at the present time). Charity and "help" should be there for those who need them, but not looked at as a steady way of life.
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