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I think you're on to something there. Prosperity definitely works best when ruthless people are "turned loose" in a dog-eat-dog capitalist free-for-all. We need to keep the notion of that "cut-throat competition" going if we're going to stay solvent in a hostile world.
HOWEVER--human decency and kindness dictates that we VOLUNTARILY soften the hard edges with some charitable kindness (mild, limited forms of socialism). This ensures we will remain a "decent" society. The danger is that these concessions to kindness must be carefully monitored, so that they don't become taken for granted as "entitlements"..(which, I think, is a lot of our problem at the present time). Charity and "help" should be there for those who need them, but not looked at as a steady way of life.
"charitable kindness", a form of socialism? I don't think so. This has nothing to do with government. When the government mandates "charitable kindness" then it becomes neither charitable nor kindly.
"charitable kindness", a form of socialism? I don't think so. This has nothing to do with government. When the government mandates "charitable kindness" then it becomes neither charitable nor kindly.
To a large degree, you're right. In its present sense, government "kindness" is a sad, over-the-top joke. However, I still want a minimal "safety net". I don't really want to live in a society where we have to step over homeless quadriplegic beggars just to get down the street. I want to take care of the deserving destitute. I'm not interested, though, in welfare as a comfortable, attractive career option.
Do you have a tendency to blame people for their own situations? If so, would you proudly label yourself a "social darwinist" of sorts? Or do you have a tendency to blame society, or possibly external, non-societal factors? Or do you try to combine both to reach a balanced approximation in a variety of cases? Or do you completely not care and not feel like answering this question because you feel that the question is stupid and poorly worded, intended merely to inflame conflict and irrational diatribes rather than foster enlightenment and understanding?
I believe people should take responsibilities for their own actions for the most part. I realize society is a huge influence on all of us - but I don't think it's an excuse to be a degenerate.
I think you're on to something there. Prosperity definitely works best when ruthless people are "turned loose" in a dog-eat-dog capitalist free-for-all. We need to keep the notion of that "cut-throat competition" going if we're going to stay solvent in a hostile world.
HOWEVER--human decency and kindness dictates that we VOLUNTARILY soften the hard edges with some charitable kindness (mild, limited forms of socialism). This ensures we will remain a "decent" society. The danger is that these concessions to kindness must be carefully monitored, so that they don't become taken for granted as "entitlements"..(which, I think, is a lot of our problem at the present time). Charity and "help" should be there for those who need them, but not looked at as a steady way of life.
I have to chuckle when I think of that quote (I think from Gordon Liddy) that said, "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money"
Well the thing with the whole prosperity through growth and or domination type of governance is that you can't grow forever. At some point all growth based economics, societies, or whatever will have to cease as there is a finite amount of room for this growth.
I remember a professor who during a discussion stated that the end result of a pure capitalist system would be the one person or entity will end up with everything. If we look at something as arbitrary as populations it is even more clear when you compare a state like Florida which is nearly entirely growth based (or Texas in the 80's) to that of a state like Vermont or New Hampshire that have nearly no growth rates but for the most part maintain a reasonably stable level of economics. They seem to be able to make it work.
One example might be if say a neighborhood was built next to an old government dump site and a few years down the road half the children being born are deformed or sick. Does not the government or society have a role to play in the care of people? Or even if it were a neighboring nation on a border that had an industry spewing toxic gases that were killing farmers crops in your country?
While there are certainly instances in which societal needs must be met through socialized means (or forced charity for those that prefer that term) I do think the biggest reasons for our distaste of anything socialized are lack of personal responsibility that initially leads to the need for it, and secondly, the misuse of various entitlements that are usually not equal nor fair in their application.
Do you have a tendency to blame people for their own situations? If so, would you proudly label yourself a "social Darwinist" of sorts? Or do you have a tendency to blame society, or possibly external, non-societal factors? Or do you try to combine both to reach a balanced approximation in a variety of cases? Or do you completely not care and not feel like answering this question because you feel that the question is stupid and poorly worded, intended merely to inflame conflict and irrational diatribes rather than foster enlightenment and understanding?
I find it IRONICAL how many people say "well, my life sucks because of Bush".
Well, my response is "why don't you get a JOB first, stop smoking weed and drinking and you will do just fine".
Laziness is the key to liberalism's rise to power in the '60s and '70s. Liberals depend on lazy people to vote for you so they can live off welfare and the liberals can rely on their votes. Take a look at how liberals took over the US in the 1960s and the 1970s. They got HIPPIES who did nothing all day but use drugs, have kids (and abortions too), and who did not work. Hippies lived off welfare and of course, they voted for the welfare state party. This is what it is called "social responsibility"... society is at fault for everything....
Bad behavior is justified by using the concept of "social responsibility" as well. "Judge, he killed and raped a 5 year old boy because his dad beat him as a child and no one gave him attention... the system failed, him, judge". This is a common line attorneys use to justify bad and criminal behavior. This is what we hear now with Obama saying he wants to free drug dealers and all sorts of criminals, because "the system is unfair to them". It is the same thing.
Instead of acknowledge that he sold crack because he is LAZY and doesn't want to work like everyone else, we have people making excuses for the criminals. Same with homeless people. Many are abled bodied and some even have work skills. But they CHOOSE to live like that. They refuse living in FREE shelters that demand they find a job of sorts. Again, people want to blame society, instead of the lazy individual.
The truth is when people take charge of their lives, they work hard, they save money, the go to classes late at night, they get ahead in life. That is called being responsible for one's self. That is called personal responsibility.
The REASON why the US is a great country is because people take responsibility for themselves. They work, they have their lives, and they want the government away from them. Now we have people pushing for the European model (what I call "the loser factory model") where the government run people's lives, sentencing for crimes is soft because "the system is rigged and therefore Johnny murdered someone... he is the victim, not the dead person...".
Does ANYONE honestly think the US would be a great country had people not worked hard and had personal responsibility??? I think not. If everyone had the European mentality of today (it wasn't always like that in Europe)... you know the mentality to live off the government and demand laws to ensure no one can be fired from a job for 2 years (even if people do nothing at work all day), that Europe would have gotten ahead? Surely NOT. That is why we look at many European countries today and we see the moral, economical, and social decline in these societies.
Honestly, I am sick and tired of people making excuses for bad behavior! Sick and tired! Get a job, pay taxes (so you see how unfair and high taxes are), move out of your momma's house, and stop whining about how the system sucks.... how you want everyone to get a free handout and they don't.
Unless YOU take charge of your own life and stop whining and begging the government for money, YOU will NEVER get ahead. You will always live off scraps off the government table, you will become some welfare loser.... Your life will suck, because you are relying on the government to help you, rather than you help yourself! Get a job! Move out! Take college classes at night! Stop using drugs!! Stop whining at the system. You live in the USA, the greatest country in the world!!
So, suck it up and take charge!
Last edited by Nirvana-Guy; 11-21-2007 at 03:44 PM..
I do think the biggest reasons for our distaste of anything socialized are lack of personal responsibility that initially leads to the need for it...
Lack of personal responsibility might perpetuate someone's continued dependence on socialized aid, but it hardly accounts for the need for socialized aid in the first place.
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...and secondly, the misuse of various entitlements that are usually not equal nor fair in their application.
People are going to abuse the system. That's a given. Perhaps your distaste should be leveled more at the systemic flaws that create the conditions for abuse rather than the overall system itself.
The truth is when people take charge of their lives, they work hard, they save money, the go to classes late at night, they get ahead in life. That is called being responsible for one's self. That is called personal responsibility.
Honestly, I am sick and tired of people making excuses for bad behavior! Sick and tired! Get a job, pay taxes (so you see how unfair and high taxes are), move out of your momma's house, and stop whining about how the system sucks.... how you want everyone to get a free handout and they don't.
Unless YOU take charge of your own life and stop whining and begging the government for money, YOU will NEVER get ahead. You will always live off scraps off the government table, you will become some welfare loser.... Your life will suck, because you are relying on the government to help you, rather than you help yourself! Get a job! Move out! Take college classes at night! Stop using drugs!! Stop whining at the system. You live in the USA, the greatest country in the world!!
So, suck it up and take charge!
That's all well and good, but until I land another job and place to stay I will be here at mom's collecting my unemployment check every two weeks without shame. It's the least society could do for a recent involuntarily-discharged military veteran who pledged 10 years of his life to service, but who could never have anticipated the circumstances that would lead to his being discharged after only 6 1/2.
I absolutely REFUSE to be another panhandling homeless vet under the highway bridge. Requesting temporary government assistance under adversity IS personal responsibility.
That's all well and good, but until I land another job and place to stay I will be here at mom's collecting my unemployment check every two weeks without shame. It's the least society could do for a recent involuntarily-discharged military veteran who pledged 10 years of his life to service, but who could never have anticipated the circumstances that would lead to his being discharged after only 6 1/2.
I absolutely REFUSE to be another panhandling homeless vet under the highway bridge. Requesting temporary government assistance under adversity IS personal responsibility.
The "benefits" you are talking about are ones you've earned. Society owes you that much, at least, after your military service. And you've also (I assume) paid into the unemployment funds from which you're now drawing. No criticism there at all.
Thanks for your service, and hope you land a job soon...
Lack of personal responsibility might perpetuate someone's continued dependence on socialized aid, but it hardly accounts for the need for socialized aid in the first place.
Well I would imagine that in some cases lack of personal responsibility does in fact lead to the need. I would point towards various drug abuse rehabilitation programs where the lack of responsibility creates the need for the socialized program.
As I mentioned earlier, societies are made of up individuals so it would only seem logical that individual responsibility would proceed societal responsibilities as one can't have a society without it composing of many individuals in the first place. I do however catch your drift and would be grateful for some examples to discuss.
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People are going to abuse the system. That's a given. Perhaps your distaste should be leveled more at the systemic flaws that create the conditions for abuse rather than the overall system itself.
A flawed system seems to be a perpetuation of externalizing issues in order to place blame elsewhere in order to pass accountability to something other than the self. I see this as a cyclical thing where things like apathy, ignorance, intolerance in turn lead to a lack of personal responsibility which in turn leads to more of the former. The end result being flaws in the system.
I find it IRONICAL how many people say "well, my life sucks because of Bush".
Funny, I have seen that people are upset with Bush (over 60%) but I have never heard anyone say that their life sucks Because of Bush.
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Laziness is the key to liberalism's rise to power in the '60s and '70s. Liberals depend on lazy people to vote for you so they can live off welfare and the liberals can rely on their votes. Take a look at how liberals took over the US in the 1960s and the 1970s. They got HIPPIES who did nothing all day but use drugs, have kids (and abortions too), and who did not work. Hippies lived off welfare and of course, they voted for the welfare state party. This is what it is called "social responsibility"... society is at fault for everything....
So all liberals are lazy and want to live off welfare?
Talk about taking personal responsibility, Bush pardons and protects his cronies and lately it has been a great deal of republicans who are not taking responsibility for their actions. The list is long.
It isn't party based when someone is not personally responsible for their actions.
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The REASON why the US is a great country is because people take responsibility for themselves. They work, they have their lives, and they want the government away from them.
This is true for most,even the "lazy liberals".
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Unless YOU take charge of your own life and stop whining and begging the government for money, YOU will NEVER get ahead. You will always live off scraps off the government table, you will become some welfare loser.... Your life will suck, because you are relying on the government to help you, rather than you help yourself! Get a job! Move out! Take college classes at night! Stop using drugs!!
Again you are talking specifically about liberals because you believe it is they who "begs for goverment money" and they all do drugs. This is so narrow-minded.
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So, suck it up and take charge!
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I think not. If everyone had the European mentality of today (it wasn't always like that in Europe)... you know the mentality to live off the government and demand laws to ensure no one can be fired from a job for 2 years (even if people do nothing at work all day), that Europe would have gotten ahead? Surely NOT. That is why we look at many European countries today and we see the moral, economical, and social decline in these societies.
Get a job, pay taxes (so you see how unfair and high taxes are), move out of your momma's house, and stop whining about how the system sucks.... how you want everyone to get a free handout and they don't. 
