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Old 11-09-2013, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,080 posts, read 14,321,575 times
Reputation: 9789

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lionsgators View Post
um, no one knows who the koch brothers are except left wing extremist nutbags. and, apparently a few people in canada.
You don't know who they are, either? Figures.
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,884,808 times
Reputation: 11259
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
You don't know who they are, either? Figures.
They are the liberal's bogeymen to counteract George Soros the conservative's bogeyman. Whenever someone mentions either of them I write them off as partisan hacks who are not capable of arguing the issues.
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:24 PM
 
6,073 posts, read 4,749,948 times
Reputation: 2635
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
You don't know who they are, either? Figures.
I have seen the names thrown around by left wing nutbags. they are rich guys. it's like the way right wingers throw the names george soros and warren buffet around. I know the names, but I have no clue who these people are. they are rich, so naturally people hate them.
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,159,948 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatooine View Post
Was any of this brought up at all in the debate over ACA? Was it ever considered?
Holy cow....whatever it is you're drinking or smoking, you need to give that recipe to the others. I'm seriously considering having your post bronzed......I had to read your post 50x it was so rational and sane.

I was not there, so I don't know for sure, but a reading of the legislative history, including Congressional Quarterly, and the committee notes, it was never discussed.

There is a legal reason why it would not be discussed.

Congress has no power over intra-State Commerce. Healthcare has been since its inception intra-State Commerce. The US Supreme Court recently affirmed that healthcare is intra-State Commerce, and that Congress has no power or authority (which means for at least the limited future a national health system like Britain or Sweden is unconstitutional).

The PPACA is however, a tax, and Congress does have constitutional authority to regulate taxes, including levying, increasing, decreasing or nullifying taxes.

It also means that the Federal Trade Commission -- the federal agency responsible for enforcing anti-trust laws and other violations related to commerce (such as the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act and the Fair Credit Reporting Act, TILA, etc etc etc) --- has no authority to investigate or regulate healthcare systems or healthcare fee-for-service providers.

The other reason it would not have been discussed, is the fact that the Special Interest Group responsible for those illegal cartels, wrote nearly all of the PPACA.

That Special Interest Group is the American Hospital Association.

While the quality of healthcare in the US is excellent, the structure, organization and delivery of healthcare is the failure.

The American Hospital Association is the sole non-government entity responsible for this nightmare.

The history of the American healthcare system is well-documented, I've provided numerous sources from government documents, and I'll just briefly outline it here, because understanding this is critical to solving 99% of the "problems" which have nothing to do with insurance.

There are no health insurance companies.

1925: 1925 Recession and collapse of the "housing bubble" signals start of Great Depression.

1927: In order to maintain streams of revenue, hospitals begin offering insurance.

1928: 1928 Recession results in more hospitals offering insurance plans. Not the first, but the best documented is the insurance plan offered by Baylor University Hospital to any teacher in Dallas County (Texas) public schools: 21 days of hospitalization for $6

1933: The End of Free Market Health Care in America: the American Hospital Association starts reviewing the health insurance plans by member hospitals, and then dictating to member hospitals minimum services that must be offered, and minimum prices of services and prices of health insurance plans.

1939: The American Hospital Association starts grouping member hospitals together by city or region in an attempt to drive out competition from non-member hospitals and create a healthcare monopoly. A unique feature of the new hospital insurance plans offered by member hospitals is the "Out-of-Network" clause designed to punish Americans for using non-member hospitals or those hospitals allied with the American Medical Association.

1939-1946: the several States, still cash-strapped and reeling from the Great Depression start seeing these hospital insurance plans for what they are: insurance. The States move to start regulating the hospital insurance plans. The American Hospital Association embarks on a massive lobbying campaign in each State to enact legislation that will exempt its member hospitals from any form of insurance regulation by the States. This campaign is known as "enabling laws" or "enabling legislation" (since it enabled the American Hospital Association to escape State insurance regulation).

1942: The End of Universal Healthcare in America: the National War Labor Board and the IRS at the insistence of the American Hospital Association allow health insurance plans offered by hospitals to be fringe benefits not subject to taxation, provided the benefits do not exceed 5% of the employee's annual salary.

1946: Successful in its campaign to enact "enabling laws" the American Hospital Association announces the formation of the first health insurance company in America: the Blue Cross, a for-profit insurance company operated as a not-for-profit. The "Out-of-Network" clause continues to be used to punish Americans for exercising freedom of choice for doctors and hospitals.

1946: Later the same year, the American Medical Association forms the second health insurance company in America....the Blue Shield to shield Americans from the harm caused by the American Hospital Association's monopoly attempts, and to shield doctors from being under the control of hospitals (meaning under the control of the American Hospital Association).

1949: Pivotal In Re: Inland Steel decision by US Supreme Court permanently ties health plan coverage to employment, excluding large numbers of Americans.

1954: The End of Health Insurance in America: After the Inland Steel decision, insurance companies start offering health insurance coverage competing with the American Hospital Association's Blue Cross. To avoid being regulated as insurance under State laws, the American Hospital Association adopted the community rating scheme. Health insurance companies were using Actuarial Science and so could offer the same coverage provided by the Blue Cross at a lower price. The Blue Cross loses 80+% of its Market Share in just a few years. The American Hospital Association lobbies Congress and the IRS for a change in the tax laws to gain an unfair competitive advantage over health insurance companies.....thus the 1954 IRS Tax Code which prohibits an insurance company from stipulating a value. i

1965: Having created an healthcare system in which Millions of Americans were excluded, the American Hospital Association offers up Medicare in its continued quest to gain monopoly control:

"Introduced by various House and Senate sponsors and subject to extensive hearings, the basic framework of part A began to reflect accommodations between the sponsors, the Administration and the American Hospital Association (AHA).

It ranged all the way from principles of institutional reimbursement, which has been pretty thoroughly already worked out in a general way for their own purposes between Blue Cross and the Hospital Association over a period of several years

The American Hospital Association has already nominated the Blue Cross organization for its membership, although some member hospitals will undoubtedly elect out of this arrangement. We have proceeded very far in the development of working arrangements with Blue Cross, although no formal approval as a fiscal intermediary has yet been given them."

Source: Report to Social Security Administration Staff on the Implementation of the Social Security Amendments of 1965, Robert M. Ball Commissioner, November 15, 1965

2008: The American Hospital Association moves further toward monopoly control of America's healthcare system with the PPACA.

In the interim, the Blue Cross eventually took over the Blue Shield, and then the Blue Cross now owns lots of insurance companies.....

America's Health Insurance Plans - Board of Directors

Anyway, healthcare in the US is over-inflated and exclusionary...that's how it came to be that way....the path to less expensive healthcare and access for everyone is to undo all of the damage over the last 80 years.

Can the States take any action against these healthcare monopolies? Depends on the State, and even then it depends on who has the political will to take on such a powerful Special Interest Group like the American Hospital Association.

Monopolies are inherently inefficient and over-inflate prices. I can't speak for the rest of the US, but in this MSA, normal child-birth is $9,320 and getting rid of the hospital cartels would drop that over-night to about $2,650.

And then what happens to the price of health plan coverage? That drops, too.

That's what happened...

Mircea
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:04 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
3,006 posts, read 3,870,106 times
Reputation: 1750
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
In 91 my mom had oat cell lung cancer, she got treatment at Wilford Hall in San Antonio. They put it into remission.
She was also cured of cervical cancer in 73, back when they used cobalt.
You're mum/mom etc is one of the lucky 2%. My point was using lung cancer as a statistic is pretty stupid when the survival rate is so low. Anyway, pleased to hear she's ok.
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,159,948 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
The Fraser Institute is a joke in Canada.
What about these....are they jokes?

Canadian Medical Association
The Chronicle Herald
Ottawa Citizen
The Los Angeles Times

Canadians still waiting too long for health care

www.gov.nl.ca/HaveYouHeard/wta.pdf‎

....the .Canadian Government

Health Care in Canada, 2012: A Focus on Wait Times - CIHI

https://secure.cihi.ca/free_products...web.pdf‎

....the Canadian Government

The Fraser Institute is 1 of 7.

What about the other 6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
Alleged? Alleged? Seriously? Your links are righteous and truthful, while others post "alleged" facts. Got it.
Again, that link was 1 of 6 links.

Are you saying the Canadian government is not truthful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
And your claims of not knowing who they are is hysterical beyond belief.
I'm not Canadian. Why would I give a damn about a Canadian Special Interest Group?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
I am SO glad you claim not to know who the Koch Brothers are. It proves one of two things. You're either......

1) Lying
or
2) Clueless and completely out of touch.

Either one works for me.
Why do you falsely assume I have a TV? I do, but not in the US. I'm not so pathetic I have to be tied to a TV 24/7.

You're quite the bigot, aren't you?

Wait, you're female, wouldn't that be bigotress?

What kind of warped person is so bigoted they believe that anyone who opposes the ACA is a Republican?

Your attempts at deflecting continue to fail.

Amused....

Mircea
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,080 posts, read 14,321,575 times
Reputation: 9789
Quote:

I'm not Canadian. Why would I give a damn about a Canadian Special Interest

Group?


You think the Koch Brothers are a Canadian Special Interest group?

You howl about people not reading your links, but it's glaringly apparent that you don't read the links other folks post.
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,159,948 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionsgators View Post
I have seen the names thrown around by left wing nutbags. they are rich guys. it's like the way right wingers throw the names george soros and warren buffet around. I know the names, but I have no clue who these people are. they are rich, so naturally people hate them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
They are the liberal's bogeymen to counteract George Soros the conservative's bogeyman. Whenever someone mentions either of them I write them off as partisan hacks who are not capable of arguing the issues.
I know of Soros and Buffet. It makes sense now. I recall a few thread titles mentioning their names. I thought they were like the Dixie Chicks or something. I'm not into celebrities. Never saw the point.

Thanking...

Mircea
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:55 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,484,713 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Then go start your own thread.



If you want rational discussion from him, then discuss the points in his OP.

Explain how the US healthcare system evolved.

Explain the economics behind healthcare.

"Health insurance" companies do not set the price of healthcare services...that is done by the hospital cartels that illegally collude to illegally fix prices way above Market rates.

Explain how paying less money for health plan coverage causes the prices of healthcare services to decline.



Loaded questions....I am not an advocate for insurance companies, and don't forget that you "apples to coconuts" comparison is universal.

Here's a simple question for you: Why do you in your self-appointed or paid position as a shill for the American Hospital Association keep trying to cause medical, financial and economic problems for Americans?



It's called Economics, not that you would actually understand.



I will be more than happy to do that.....just as soon as Brits start spending enough money so that people don't die on waiting lists, and just as soon as Canada starts spending enough money so that people don't die on waiting lists, and just as soon as Sweden starts spending enough money to so that people don't die on waiting lists.....etc etc etc.

If your system was so superior, there wouldn't be any waiting lists.



Yes, as a disabled veteran who is semi-retired and whose net worth is ~$35,000 and who's income is less than $20,000 per year, I'm one of the filthy rich....guilty as charged



You thought wrong....maybe you should stop thinking.



The American Hospital Association wrote the PPACA, not insurance companies, and you have still continually failed to answer the simple question why do surgeries, medical procedures, hospitalization and such cost so much?

American Hospital Assn

HEAVY HITTER The American Hospital Association represents 37,000 individual members at more than 5,000 hospitals and health care systems.
View totals for other cycles:
CONTRIBUTIONS
$2,383,767
ranks 137 of 20,981
LOBBYING
$19,251,200 (2012)
$20,823,341 (2011)
ranks 5 of 4,368 in 2012
OUTSIDE SPENDING
$1,912,675
ranks 47 of 296

The American Hospital Association gave....

$779 Million to Obama for America 2008
$260 Million to DNC 2008
$428 Million to RNC 2008

Source: American Hospital Association Pac (2008 Election) - US Campaign Committees

Sourcing...

Mircea
Nice rebuttal to something but not to any of the questions raised like what the hell has the inaccurate ratio of elderly hospital deaths in the U.K., the wait times in Canada and Sweden got to do with your nonsense regarding the ACA?

You're flailing about like a fart in a windstorm with about the same effect.

Scrap your ACA or debate the hell out of it while it continues to lurch along, but using any other countries proven better results over many decades to yours to refute it seems oxymoronic in the extreme. Your beef is with your own stupid legislators and not with foreign countries as NONE of them is forcing your acceptance of ACA.

We're happy; you are not. Golly gee; could that be YOUR problem and not ours? Suck it up buttercup.

Posting link after link discussing stuff that does not pertain to YOUR problem with the ACA seems to indicate you're the one with the thought processes fubarred. Why not use the keyboard time to lobby your rep's instead of flinging spitballs at the ceiling and counting how many of them stick up there.

Have you ever once registered a positive accomplishment with this infantile behaviour?

condescending
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Old 11-09-2013, 02:04 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,484,713 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
They are the liberal's bogeymen to counteract George Soros the conservative's bogeyman. Whenever someone mentions either of them I write them off as partisan hacks who are not capable of arguing the issues.
And what issue is it we're supposed to be arguing? The OP was about something to do with death rate of the elderly in the U.K. being 4 times that of the U.S.

With the average lifespans still being higher for both sexes in the U.K. than is the case in U.S. one should be envious of the fact more of you are dying outside of hospitals than in the U.K.? Really?

Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A veritable who'se who list of fellow travellers.

Koch Brothers Exposed | The Nation

No wonder you revere them.
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