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Old 11-25-2007, 06:25 AM
 
1,735 posts, read 4,223,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miker2069 View Post
Red, what would be your idea to compete in a global economy? Let's say for instance you ran GM, or you ran American Airlines and was competing with "new school" airlines like Southwest? I'll even submit that GM and American put out a quality product/service. The competitor also puts out at minimum a (perceived) product/service as good as yours- except he brings it to market for 20% lower than yours? Without going back and talking about the good people, the degrees they have, or how unfair competition may be, etc.- how do you propose to keep your company afloat in light of that reality. The free market by and large will choose the least expensive product given relative quality/features/performance. Perception is also reality (i.e., the Japanese make a better car) so you have that to contend with also.

Should your company lobby congress and recommend imposing trade sanctions against foreign competitors? Should we impose a high tariff on foreign imports (a penalty). In the world dynamics what ripple effect would that have on US exports? Should the government subsidize and/or bail because your product/service is crucial to the American way of life (i.e., the Airline industry)? Should we take military action against the nations of our biggest foreign competitor (it happens)? Do you look at the expense line item and see that the pension fund, insurances, plant overhead is a huge portion of your companies expense? Will you be the hero in the eyes of your workers and promise there will be no cuts knowing that without change the company simply won't exist inside of 10 years?

I'm absolutely serious and not poking fun- possibly there is something that hasn't been thought of in order to maintain profitable and maintain the pre-global economy format that many people want to keep (the good job with a single company). I've yet to hear it though.

You mentioned that the loss of manufacturing jobs would be/is bad for America. The same argument I'm sure was said about the "new era of manufacturing" as it displaced the once agrarian/farming based economy and people left the farm land for the mill.

I understand the emotional anguish that comes with doing a good job, being a good person, etc and then realizing it seemingly didn't help when your company can't compete. I mean there are several generations of people who were told, get a good education, get a good job with a good company- and that's it. Then the economy and markets of the world get broader and open. I can get a PhD in Russia for 30% of that same PhD in the US.

Interestingly enough in regards to my previous hypothetical question- there are pockets of companies who figured out how to survive the off-shoring and actually thrive in the US (however it looks nothing like the vast majority of old business mills/plants).
I donít have an answer to what a global economy should look like.
I donít think jobs should be guaranteed, but I do think companies should think about what effect a plant closure does to its employees.

What Iím trying to get out is the long-term effect on this country.
Manufacturing is what made this country the powerhouse it is/was.
If all of manufacturing goes away because itís cheaper in another country then that talent pool in the US will be lost. At some point in the future those cheap countries will begin to raise their labor costs because the workers will want more. When this happens the prices will increase and we wont be able to stop it or build our way out because we no longer have the knowledge base to do it.

I just think this rush to cheap labor is short sighted and will end up biting us in the but! sometime down the road.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:33 AM
 
2,967 posts, read 1,755,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
The New American Dream is simple. Pick out really rich parents or win the megabucks lottery. Working smart and hard for success is what has died.
Proves my thesis that the American Dream is dead for those on the left. To say that the American Dream requires "luck" . . . born to rich parents or winning the lottery. . What about hard work and drive, ambition?

This is the 3rd poster since yesterday who has stated this same sentiment. . I believe sunnyhelena/dreams montery, Nothing12, and yourself, who stated the dream is dead for them (and I don't think I am going out on a limb to state your all left-leaning?)

While Republicans still have optimism, hope, and ambition. And are willing to work for it. If what one poster wrote is the American dream. . owning a single family home and having a well-paying job. Well, I am living it. But I also believe it is much much more. . having hope for a future, an optimistic attitude, and something to look forward to.

It is very sad to me that people on the left feel the American Dream is dead for them. It must be depressing. But what can we do to change it for them? It sounds like they feel they are hopeless in changing things for themselves and it all requires luck. .. They feel like they do not feel they have control over their lives.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:47 AM
 
1,015 posts, read 3,009,911 times
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This is an excellent post with excellent responses and I agree with much of what you all said. One point I'd like to make is this: Has anyone else noticed that kids, teenagers, and young adults simply cannot spell or do math? I started realizing this in just the last few years... maybe word perfect or calculators have semi-taken over these basic skills? I'm not convinced that the "no one goes without a laptop" mentality in schools is the way to go. It seems to me that the basics should be learned first and THEN use the modern technology to streamline work and tasks for optimum time management. The lack of basic reading, writing, and 'rithmetic skills directly affects the core of the american dream for the younger generations in my opinion.
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Old 11-25-2007, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Looking over your shoulder
30,282 posts, read 27,723,614 times
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The board of directors are made up of CEOs from other companies, itís one of those old cronies things, weíll all scratch each others back. As for CEO pay, in the distant past it was about 100 times the average salary of their employees and at this time period it has moved to 400 ~ 450 times the average salary of their employees. Thatís not bad if youíre the ceo.

This topic shouldnít be a matter of being left or right on the political sides, itís about what went wrong with the American Dream? Jobs are part of the dream, but itís more then just that. What went wrong with the public school system in America? Why are two parents working in the household today and 30, 40, or 50 years ago only one working parent? I think Iím coming around to the question of what happened to the middle class in America more then anything else. Itís becoming or is extinct leaving only the poor and the rich. There are the haves and the have-nots with few Americanís in the middle. Maybe this is part of what is missing in the country?

Ronald Reagan was the president that started union busting with the air traffic controllers. Then the George H. W. Bush signed and rolled out NAFTA with Bill Clinton failing to alter the agreement. This was a major mistake that we are now seeing the effects of with cheap imports from everywhere, and little manufacturing here that would provide jobs.

Itís bad to make mistakes but worse when you look back at them and then continue to move forward making the same errors again or failing to correct the mistake.

I guess part of the American Dream is dead because we have had poor leadership over a period of time that has killed off the dream. Leadership in business, corporations, schools, and government at all levels. * Iím not saying that everyone in these positions are part of the problem but Iím sure there are too many who are the problem. So where is the leadership America needs today?
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Old 11-25-2007, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Camberville
11,986 posts, read 16,716,959 times
Reputation: 19622
There's a general lack of optimism in my generation (college students) on both the left AND the right. Our parents have no faith in us, jobs are being shipped overseas, and hard work, education, and perseverance don't seem to be enough for many of us to be able to break even.

It's a bit unfair to characterize my generation as uneducated and bratty with an entitlement problem. After all- it was many of you who raised us, where do you think some of us got it from? I don't expect to waltz out of college with a 6 figure job, living in the nicest part of town, driving a $30,000 car. But as my friends graduate and have to work 2 jobs with bachelors and even masters degrees just to support themselves, I think I have a bit of a right to be pessimistic. Not to mention that with global warming, the impending energy crisis, and the offshoots of both (water shortages, food shortages, etc) that float around in the political world, many of my fellow students (especially in my program since I study sustainable development) really don't foresee so bright of a future... even as our parents drive SUVs around the suburbs.

Hard work obviously pays off more than slacking off and feeling sorry for yourself- but hard work doesn't guarantee job security. Being honest isn't a quality many companies seem to value these days- especially at the higher level (although, did they ever?). College is a necessity, not an extra perk.

30 years ago, my father managed to go from sweeping a factory store to being a vice president of a company through sheer hard work and intelligence. When the company laid him off 5 years ago, he found that no one would hire him despite his 25 years of experience because he didn't have an MBA, much less a college degree. What was the epitome of the American dream for him has been completely shattered by new realities.
Is it the government's fault? Partly. Is it the people's fault? Partly. In any case, for every story you hear of someone working their tail off to make a comfortable life for themselves and their families in this country, there are several more failed attempts and crash and burns.

PS: Many adults cannot spell, write coherent sentences, or do simple math. It is not all the fault of present day public education. You don't have to go to far on the forums to find these types of posts either.
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Old 11-25-2007, 10:42 AM
 
Location: in my imagination
11,369 posts, read 18,567,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LM1 View Post
Its always been that way.
Liberalism is the philosophy of failure.
It's why they are always complaining about anything "big" or they use the word "big" as if it were some sort of insult.
"Big business" or "big oil" or "big tobacco".
They have no problem with mediocrity, but they take severe exception to great success.
Just look at their voting base. It's made up of lifes failures, blamers, etc.

Not everyone can be Bill Gates. Not everyone can be a huge success. Yes, it's important to mind the interests of the little guy too, however, much of modern day liberal dogma holds that individual success is a bad thing, barely tolerable so it can be taxed for the benefit of providing for those who fail- those who are substantially inclined to vote Liberal.
I agree.

To answer the American dream,well those friends I listed before are a good example.Look at Igor Sikorsky,another example who America opened up opportunity to let let him expand himself freely and reap the rewards from it.
Igor Sikorsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding Gates,yet another example.But also,what too many companies are doing tese days is instead of competing by superior customer service,innovation,they have chosen the easy route to a fast buck by cheap labor,moving off shore or hiring cheap labor at home.

A company like Microsoft for example,should spread the wealth (not to sound like a Democrat but).What I mean is treating employees honestly,paying the decent wages,where everyone profits accordingly.When a company picks up a illegal standing outside of Homedepot for $6 a hour,instead of paying a loyal employee $11 a hour,or even outsourcing,that is profit without ethics,that's hurting the national interests for the sake of a quick buck.

This thought I believe is actually conservative in my opinion ,no cap on profit,but with ethics.When a company is out for profit at any cost,by cutting the throats of employees,by hurting national interests this where it is wrong in my opinion.When a company can only boast profits by quick get rich schemes.instead of traditional (hard work and ethics) and is willing to hire cheap labor even if that means a loss in quality control then something is wrong.

Last edited by lionking; 11-25-2007 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 11-25-2007, 10:52 AM
 
2,967 posts, read 1,755,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00 View Post
There's a general lack of optimism in my generation (college students) on both the left AND the right. Our parents have no faith in us, jobs are being shipped overseas, and hard work, education, and perseverance don't seem to be enough for many of us to be able to break even.

It's a bit unfair to characterize my generation as uneducated and bratty with an entitlement problem. After all- it was many of you who raised us, where do you think some of us got it from? I don't expect to waltz out of college with a 6 figure job, living in the nicest part of town, driving a $30,000 car. But as my friends graduate and have to work 2 jobs with bachelors and even masters degrees just to support themselves, I think I have a bit of a right to be pessimistic. Not to mention that with global warming, the impending energy crisis, and the offshoots of both (water shortages, food shortages, etc) that float around in the political world, many of my fellow students (especially in my program since I study sustainable development) really don't foresee so bright of a future... even as our parents drive SUVs around the suburbs.

. . . - but hard work doesn't guarantee job security. Being honest isn't a quality many companies seem to value these days- especially at the higher level (although, did they ever?).
Do you think your generation is unique in that it blames the parents for the "mess" the world is in. Who blame the parents for leaving them a world that isn't perfect? Criticizing your parents for global warming (driving SUVs) Good grief.

And you don't expect a six figure income and a 30,000 car? How sensible of you! Forgive me but it sounds pretty materialist.

I have one piece of advice for you. Life isn't easy for many (most) of us, but your attitude needs an adjustment. Expect hard work, don't assume you deserve the best or an easy life. Work hard, set goals, save your money. Don't complain. People don't like to be around complainers. Give more than expected at whatever job you work and exceed expectations. Look for something more than material gains. Be thankful.
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:04 AM
 
Location: in my imagination
11,369 posts, read 18,567,129 times
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The goal of any company is to increase profit,that's to be expected.Upper managment's job is to increase production and profit for the company,by holding down costs and or increasing production,that's to be expected.

But the ethical way to do it,just using Microsoft as a example.

(At the board meeting)

"sir,our profit has increased $x amount this quarter,our R&D has improved latest designs,we are having great sales with our newest product.Customer service feedback is at 90% positive.We are beating the competion hands down.We have continued holding on to our current exployees,their production is upholding without hiring more for now."(response from CEO)..."good job Wlison,I will see that your bonus goes through and am recommending a pay raise for all employees accordingly".

THE WRONG WAY

(At the board meeting)

"sir our profit has increased $x amount this quarter,while sales have not slipped we have "tightened up" employees,our new plant in Mexico along with our new employees from India have saved the company $X amount,our profits have increased steadily.We can sale the same product to the public at the same price but have saved $X amount in production costs.(response from CEO)...."good job Wilson,I'll see that you get your bonus through immediately".
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:23 PM
 
2,967 posts, read 1,755,070 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The goal of any company is to increase profit,that's to be expected.Upper managment's job is to increase production and profit for the company,by holding down costs and or increasing production,that's to be expected.

But the ethical way to do it,just using Microsoft as a example.

(At the board meeting)

"sir,our profit has increased $x amount this quarter,our R&D has improved latest designs,we are having great sales with our newest product.Customer service feedback is at 90% positive.We are beating the competion hands down.We have continued holding on to our current exployees,their production is upholding without hiring more for now."(response from CEO)..."good job Wlison,I will see that your bonus goes through and am recommending a pay raise for all employees accordingly".

THE WRONG WAY

(At the board meeting)

"sir our profit has increased $x amount this quarter,while sales have not slipped we have "tightened up" employees,our new plant in Mexico along with our new employees from India have saved the company $X amount,our profits have increased steadily.We can sale the same product to the public at the same price but have saved $X amount in production costs.(response from CEO)...."good job Wilson,I'll see that you get your bonus through immediately".
I disagree that it is WRONG to send business off shore. The important thing is for the company to make money for the stockholders, not to offer a cradle to grave job.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Looking over your shoulder
30,282 posts, read 27,723,614 times
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Default loyalty isn't a one way street!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1 View Post
I disagree that it is WRONG to send business off shore. The important thing is for the company to make money for the stockholders, not to offer a cradle to grave job.
Yeah itís not important to have customer or employee loyalty for a company, and if a company wants to trash their workers and move offshore then go ahead. Most workers should only stay a few years on the job ~ then get rid of them before they earn too much money or get lazy on the job. Yeah customers donít care if their neighbors work here anymore or not, and those who have been around for 5 years need to move elsewhere. Loyalty isnít a good relationship for companies ~ it costs them money ~ cut them loose.

Thatís a hell of a good way to run a business (kill loyalty) and it looks like thatís just what happened with so many employees these days. Who can be loyal when you stay around 4-5 years, after all itís all about an honest buck for a days work ~ isnít it? Next thing you know the employee might want a vacation or medical insurance coverage maybe even a Christmas bonus like upper management gets? We canít have that!
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