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Old 11-24-2013, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 16,049,604 times
Reputation: 3954

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
If your statement is an exaggeration of the butterfly effect - you are correct.

But a person who eats fast food does nothing to anyone else other than create demand for a fast food place to satisfy. A lifetime of fast food is a different story.
And there is the rub. Using your example; The boundary between someone who "eats fast food" and someone who eats fast food to the point at which point they begin to place a burden on the healthcare system that all of us (yes, even before Obamacare) pay for, is arbitrary. Move from the behavior of individuals to the behavior of entire populations, and the issue becomes that much more subjective.

Having acknowledged that all such issues are necessarily complex, society still has an interest in balancing the freedom of the individual on one hand and the safety, security, stability and opportunity of the community on the other. In finding that balance, there will be errors on either side... some that favor the individual too much and some that favor the community too much. In a healthy society, those discussion are constantly revisited, generally in a sense of compromise But all such decisions are by definition compromises.

All pragmatic achievement requires compromise. The loss of the capacity to compromise is debilitating to the functioning of any society.

Cigarette use in a public place is a different issue - since smoke cannot be contained and it is objectionable (for health reasons) to people nearby.

 
Old 11-24-2013, 10:55 AM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,300 posts, read 54,213,280 times
Reputation: 40623
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
We, as conservatives, believe that the "rights" of the collective should not trump the individual, and that the rights of the "collective" is a compilation of individual rights and personal liberties.


Because the conservative opposition to same-sex marriage is ALL about the individual, eh?

Because the conservative willingness to give corporations carte blanche is ALL about the individual, eh?

WHAT a load of self-serving self-Righteous hooey.
 
Old 11-24-2013, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 16,049,604 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
that is the driving force behind many of our programs, the promise of increase of public good at the real cost of personal liberty.
Since that is the actual conflict, what other driving force would be reasonable?
 
Old 11-24-2013, 10:59 AM
 
Location: USA
5,738 posts, read 5,428,064 times
Reputation: 3668
The conservative ideal of absolute personal freedom only works when living in isolation. I know it's painful to hear for some, but we live in the 21st century, where (for instance) your right to burn tires in your yard interferes with your neighbor's right to breathe, your right to parent as you see fit interferes with your child's right to not be beaten, and your right to refuse medical care costs everyone else money.

It's hilarious and delusional to see conservatives defend things like our right to speak freely (per the OP), as I'd like to see how she feels about that if someone was to come and personally harass her, or to deceive her in a business transaction.
 
Old 11-24-2013, 11:02 AM
 
26,143 posts, read 19,767,810 times
Reputation: 17241
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC
I don't get why you just go along with it all even if you would do those things on your own.
They have been brainwashed (CONDITIONED) to not cause problems,to be pigeons for them!!!!!!

It shows in most things people do now and its quite sad!!
 
Old 11-24-2013, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 17,321,941 times
Reputation: 7990
Nice to see the straw men are out and about today. Libertarian, individualist philosophy has always allowed for restriction of actions like pollution that affect others. 'Your right to freely swing your fist ends and the tip of my nose' is a common way to put it.

Anyone who as managed to miss this point needs to go read a basic intro to libertarianism/individualism such as Friedman's Free to Choose before posting again on what libertarian-conservative types believe and advocate.
 
Old 11-24-2013, 11:22 AM
 
5,633 posts, read 5,340,594 times
Reputation: 3855
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Anyone who as managed to miss this point needs to go read a basic intro to libertarianism/individualism such as Friedman's Free to Choose before posting again on what libertarian-conservative types believe and advocate.
Yet, there are about 45,387 posts per day on this forum dictating how liberals think. Funny, that.
 
Old 11-24-2013, 11:22 AM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
33,942 posts, read 22,461,411 times
Reputation: 25806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostly1 View Post
But I'll bet you're glad your mother wasn't.
How in the world would you presume to know his mother's stance on women having the right to choose?

Do tell.
 
Old 11-24-2013, 11:25 AM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,955,048 times
Reputation: 2177
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Any "personal decision" that actually affects more than a single person is no longer exclusively personal.

Such is the foundation for all morality.
Then how is what you eat, wearing a helmet, wearing seat belts, choosing what you want to insure against, etc, NOT personal choice?
 
Old 11-24-2013, 11:30 AM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,955,048 times
Reputation: 2177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 View Post
Who is this elusive *you* to whom you refer? Do you imagine that *all* liberals march lock step, en masse, to approve of the soda ban? The trans fat ban? Helmet laws?
Absolutley.

Quote:
Of course, most of us DO believe that living in a civilized society requires laws. What do 'you people' feel about that?
No, living a civilized society requires NO laws at all.

Laws are to correct the non-civilized.

Quote:
Would *you* just love a big ole' free-for-all? Do your own thang? No rules? No laws?
We'd be better off than than we are now.
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