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Old 12-08-2013, 07:03 PM
 
18,163 posts, read 9,961,035 times
Reputation: 17676

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[quote=NHartphotog;32538194]The reason unions came into being is because people were systematically underpaid, and governments were as guilty of that as robber barons.

Quote:
Education would be infinitely better without teacher's unions sending property taxes into the stratosphere and preventing real reform of education. Teachers are paid as if they work a full time job, but get summers and semester breaks off--and as government workers they get paid more, and have far more generous benefits, than a private sector worker. The cost of public education has skyrocketed, while national academic achievement as compared to other nations is poor at best.
Well, a lot of them are having to buy their own supplies out of their pockets, so I guess it equals out.

Quote:
Firefighting used to be a volunteer job--now they "work" 2 days a week (on call), get paid for sleeping and exercising, and retire after 20 years with a pension bigger than most people's salaries. Firefighting is significantly less dangerous than even being a police officer--which isn't very dangerous as occupations go. "Firefighters die at a rate of 2.5 per 100,000 workers, which is slightly above the rate for cashiers" (Firefighter one of nationís safest jobs | CalWatchDog).
Talk to the families and friends of some of the firefighters that rushed into the World Trade Center disaster about that. Wear your Kelvar vest.

Back when putting out a fire meant dousing a barn or a wood frame house with water, depending solely on volunteers made sense. Dealing with skyscrapers, toxic fumes, gas heating, corrupted electrical systems...not so much.

The actual death rate is not relevant. If he doesn't die, it's only because he spends a great deal of time doing the things you're critical of--like exercising to be strong enough to haul around 90 pounds of fire-resistant gear and oxygen, climb 20 flights of stairs, and then pull your butt out of a building. But it's the fact that he's agreed to be ready to risk his life at a moment's notice--unlike that cashier--that makes him worth the money.

People who don't understand that have a social problem.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:52 PM
 
8,810 posts, read 5,366,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer View Post
So you want to get rid of the government workers that check for eligibility and fraud?
Yes, and we should also consider firing all the wolves guarding chickens too.
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:04 PM
 
8,810 posts, read 5,366,201 times
Reputation: 3691
[quote=Ralph_Kirk;32538370]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHartphotog View Post
The reason unions came into being is because people were systematically underpaid, and governments were as guilty of that as robber barons.



Well, a lot of them are having to buy their own supplies out of their pockets, so I guess it equals out.



Talk to the families and friends of some of the firefighters that rushed into the World Trade Center disaster about that. Wear your Kelvar vest.

Back when putting out a fire meant dousing a barn or a wood frame house with water, depending solely on volunteers made sense. Dealing with skyscrapers, toxic fumes, gas heating, corrupted electrical systems...not so much.

The actual death rate is not relevant. If he doesn't die, it's only because he spends a great deal of time doing the things you're critical of--like exercising to be strong enough to haul around 90 pounds of fire-resistant gear and oxygen, climb 20 flights of stairs, and then pull your butt out of a building. But it's the fact that he's agreed to be ready to risk his life at a moment's notice--unlike that cashier--that makes him worth the money.

People who don't understand that have a social problem.
It's also quite irrelevant since fire fighting is a locally paid profession, and has nothing to do with the federal employees the OP was talking about.

The underlying truth in the OP is that all of the federal assistence programs are designed to take our money and grow government ... not redistribute that money to the needy. The needy serve as the excuse ... and they may get 10 cents out of every dollar taken for their supposed benefit .. the other 90 cents to those safe guarders of fraud and abuse who are there to ensure t only the needy gets that dime.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,832 posts, read 9,885,791 times
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Originally Posted by Greg_IA View Post
Where does that money come from?
Money is nothing-it is a symbol of our faith in the economy and system but it is essentially just paper. If our Government really cared about poor people and didn't need a permanent underclass that spends all they have, poverty would be eradicated.

Currently The Federal Reserve creates $85 Billion per Month in new money backed by nothing, but it is only meant to prop up the stock market and further enrich the 1% whose wealth and control over our Government has reached epic proportions. Once you understand how vital a role debt and consumerism play in our colluded economy you realize how important poor and especially the working poor (many of which yes may receive Food Stamps to get by) are for the system overall.
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:21 AM
 
18,163 posts, read 9,961,035 times
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[quote=GuyNTexas;32539788]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post

It's also quite irrelevant since fire fighting is a locally paid profession, and has nothing to do with the federal employees the OP was talking about.

The underlying truth in the OP is that all of the federal assistence programs are designed to take our money and grow government ... not redistribute that money to the needy. The needy serve as the excuse ... and they may get 10 cents out of every dollar taken for their supposed benefit .. the other 90 cents to those safe guarders of fraud and abuse who are there to ensure t only the needy gets that dime.
If you're talking about the Iron Law of Bureaucracy, you're right.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:51 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,947 posts, read 21,580,157 times
Reputation: 15436
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
I did the same thing some others here have done. I made a choice to better my life after drifting around and working minimum wage jobs. I had gone to college but hated it and dropped out. But I got an entry level job, studied on my own time and got a professional certification where I paid for my own testing process. I leveraged that certification and my work experience to go from minimum wage no skill labor to being middle class. That's a success story.

However, I then became disabled. My wife said she couldn't deal with it and left. And took my house with her. I have a car which I can no longer drive. I made the right choices, I did the work. But here I am. I did not choose to be poor. On May 23, 2011 I started the day waking up in my house next to my wife to get ready to go to my regular middle class job, and I ended that day disabled for the rest of my life. Now I've come to terms with that, but you can't tell me it was poor choices.
I'm with ya, similar story and that's exactly what the "safety net" is supposed to be for. Unfortunately that net has/is being stretched to breaking to include those that just don't "feel" like trying.
Life tosses us all curve balls, it's up to each individual as to how we're going to deal with them. I consider myself lucky and realize it could be way worse every time I see someone totally paralyzed or with missing limbs.
Mine may not work so well at times and may hurt like heck but I've still got 'em so I'm pretty lucky all things considered.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:55 AM
 
5,698 posts, read 2,154,171 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
I did the same thing some others here have done. I made a choice to better my life after drifting around and working minimum wage jobs. I had gone to college but hated it and dropped out. But I got an entry level job, studied on my own time and got a professional certification where I paid for my own testing process. I leveraged that certification and my work experience to go from minimum wage no skill labor to being middle class. That's a success story.
OK, following you so far, minus some details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
However, I then became disabled. My wife said she couldn't deal with it and left. And took my house with her. I have a car which I can no longer drive. I made the right choices, I did the work. But here I am. I did not choose to be poor. On May 23, 2011 I started the day waking up in my house next to my wife to get ready to go to my regular middle class job, and I ended that day disabled for the rest of my life. Now I've come to terms with that, but you can't tell me it was poor choices.
Lots of details missing, but I already see choices being made just from the vaguery.

Disabled how? You can think and type clearly, but cannot drive a car, so I am assuming you cannot use your legs? Uhm, not for nothing, but I've worked with several people who required a wheelchair.

The wife "left because she couldn't deal with it" and "took your house" when she left? Well, more than one guy bet on the wrong horse, myself included, but marrying someone who would ditch you over a disability is a choice.

Also need detail on what kind of job you had and why diability means you can't have it anymore, or why disability prevents you from training for another kind of work?

Again though, I see choices being made. Primarily among them, choosing to accept defeat rather than push past it, at least from the tone and lack of detail in that prior post.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:41 AM
 
8,810 posts, read 5,366,201 times
Reputation: 3691
[quote=Ralph_Kirk;32542707]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post

If you're talking about the Iron Law of Bureaucracy, you're right.
That covers the basics of self intetests that extends to more than just bureaucracies, but doesn't cover what we have going on. The economic system we have operating is by design, a deliberate fleecing of the 99%, for the benefit of the 1%.

Someone once said that the middle 70% continue to work hard in hopes of joining the top 10%, and the bottom 20% are there to scare the hell out of that 70, showing them what could happen to them if they stop fighting to climb that ladder.

This illusion of free market capitalism is just that ... an illusion. We have crony capitalism in which those that control the monetary system (FED) control the entire game. And it's so bloody ovbious, I am really at a loss to explain how so many have and continue to be fooled into thinking the system isn't rigged. I understand that it's a product of education, and mass media manipulation that keeps the hamsters on the wheel ... but you'd think that at some point long before now, people would have recognized that the story didn't match the results.

George Carlin said it best ... "they call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it".
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