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Old 12-14-2013, 01:37 PM
 
47,316 posts, read 24,627,956 times
Reputation: 14468

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Oh hell, I caught this one right before logging out. So sorry you are reduced to lashing out in frustration, Desert Detroiter. And that is all it is.

Your "white supremacist" comment is what is truly laughable. I honestly thought that you were a better debater than that. I guess I was wrong.

I am not even going to dignify your ridiculous accusation with a reply. If it makes you feel better about yourself to call me a "white supremacist" or "racist" then go ahead and scream it until you are blue in the face. Wholesale insults like this are usually the last resort for those who have no other recourse of reply. So big freaking deal if that makes you feel better. Again, I expected a more articulate rejoinder from an intelligent and reasonable man like you. And I say that sincerely, and you should know I do.

How about if I called you a "black supremacist" because you seem to believe that black rule is better than white rule? It makes about the same amount of sense, and I would never do that, in any event. Let's face it, all factions want to control a given country, especially those in Africa with its history. That is really the essence of the point I am trying to make. Whites wanted to control what they had created, and blacks wanted to do the same when they had the chance to do so. I would be the same way as would almost all of us.

The whole "lets all get along and love one another" thingy that became the myth of Mandela was a creation of fantasy and American liberal idealism -- and censorship -- pure and simple. And what transpired verified it. But of course, that one has become totally glossed over in the mainstream media.

I answered every single one of your questions, and just because they don't square with the rolling over and playing dead in the face of the "angry black man" that some seem to expect doesn't change my opinion at all. You don't know a thing about me, and I have had more black students during my teaching career who have nominated me for awards than I can count...and that I need to explain -- for as that goes, anyway. The record speaks for itself.

You are pissed off -- IMO -- because you can't answer my queries. Depending on what one defines as "human rights violations", then every single nation that has ever existed has "committed" them. The United States included (such as in breaking treaties with the Indians). But it becomes a matter of relativity. In this case, why did so many blacks come into South Africa even in the worst days of segregation, and why has the nation steadily deteriorated under ANC rule? And hell, other blacks are bearing the brunt of it today. I can't help the truth, even though some would love to do just that.

Yes, I am denying that the world wars were "tribal wars" in the sense we are speaking of here. They were purges and horrific for sure under both the Nazi and communist rule, no question. Appalling! But they really ideological, that is, the "purge" of those who didn't go along with the regime in control. It didn't make much difference which "tribe" one belonged to; if they opposed the dictator, then they were toast, whatever race or religion or creed. Often, literally. But to be fair, please explain a bit further as to which European tribes you are speaking of during the said era and within the same nation?

But anyway, again, your reply is noted. And time to call it a night, for real!
No sir...YOU'RE mad, not me. I called it absolutely perfectly.

At the end of the day, I have no reason to be mad or frustrated. The guys that should be running that country ARE running that country. The guys you want to run the country, subjugate and oppress the natives, AREN'T running the country.

You bet on the loser, and I didn't. Your boys miscalculated, and picked the wrong people to push around. They had a good run, but that run is over. Evil doesn't always triumph in the end...and that regime was as evil and malevolent as they come.

As for my accusations, sorry...but if you support Apartheid (and you did), that's what I have to call you. You should be honest enough to own up to it.
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
7,136 posts, read 4,318,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
And a very important way yo look at it is this. How was apartheid as a system of forced racial separation beneficial for everyone? How was the unequal allocation of resources based on race beneficial for everyone? How is one group not being able to vote beneficial for everyone? How is being forcefully removed from certain places by the government based on one's race beneficial for everyone? How is being subjected to basically Jim Crow policies beneficial for everyone? Why should it be that only one group gets full rights and everyone else gets treated like second-class citizens? Why?
I wanted to write up a long response. But I decided instead to just post my "response notes".

Apartheid no angels, but neither is communism.
Nothing wrong with preaching for ending racial segregation, but its always by communists, not capitalists.
I'm not defending apartheid, I'm just comparing apartheid to what there is now.
Apartheid was basically fascism, but fascism is still better than communism(America today is somewhat fascist).
Black people in america at one time were second-class citizens. How many wanted to leave?
While blacks were complaining about being second-class citizens, how many black Africans would have gladly come to america?
The reason why South Africa is turning into garbage, is because of the class, race, and group hatred created by socialists. Who blame all of their problems on someone else.
Had anti-apartheid fighters pushed for a limited government of actual freedom. The country would be much better off today than it is.


When I weigh the facts. I don't think Mandela had a positive impact on the life of the average South African. Had Mandela been a John Locke/Thomas Jefferson instead of a Karl Marx/Vladimir Lenin. He would unequivocally have my support.
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:16 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
19,865 posts, read 18,316,772 times
Reputation: 7955
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I think there are people who really do feel that African people are inherently incapable of running things for themselves. I believe this is why some people feel that apartheid was "not that bad" or try to make apologetic arguments when it comes to the topic of apartheid.

I believe it boils down to some people feeling that Blacks are inherently inferior/incapable/stupid. There are some people who think along the lines of "some races are meant to rule, and some races are meant to be ruled". I believe some of the persons who say "it was better under apartheid", well, it is my assessment that some people really could not care less about what was happening to non-Whites under apartheid. There are those who think under the terms of "Blacks don't deserve any rights".

And a very important way yo look at it is this. How was apartheid as a system of forced racial separation beneficial for everyone? How was the unequal allocation of resources based on race beneficial for everyone? How is one group not being able to vote beneficial for everyone? How is being forcefully removed from certain places by the government based on one's race beneficial for everyone? How is being subjected to basically Jim Crow policies beneficial for everyone? Why should it be that only one group gets full rights and everyone else gets treated like second-class citizens? Why?
I was just watching a little documentary on a high school in one of Lisbon's most African neighborhoods. There are lots of immigrants, mostly African, some hardly speak the language, there are lots of social problems. Judging from the footage it might as well have been an African school. Kids were singing and dancing African dances in the school yard.

The funny thing is, according to the national school rankings that school is clearly better than the average Portuguese, i.e. white school in academic terms
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:43 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
19,865 posts, read 18,316,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Today? We were talking about SA's during apartheid. Most of them had no electricity, no running water, no adequate housing, etc. So, yes, they were definitely treated like second-class people.
I am sure that is true. But were they better off than in the country they fled from? I don't know why reality is so hard to face other than some warped form of political correctness. Why would black Africans go to South Africa if they didn't think life might -- just might -- be better than where they left? It makes no sense otherwise.



Like I said originally, I am neither happy nor unhappy about the end of apartheid. But some people seem to believe that a form of segregation is the worst sin in the world. Why wouldn't the whites want to keep the country they created; again, from nothing at all and built it into something that stood out as a first world nation?

When you ask was it "ok"?...well, that is a deflection (IMO). Ok for who? I could rejoin by asking if blacks are any better off now that the ANC took over? Is THAT ok?



And that is my general point! Earth is not heaven, so the lesser of the evils have to be picked. And apparently many blacks felt that apartheid in South Africa was better than where they came from. What were the other choices?
I don't really understand your logic. It lacks moral foundation.

Apartheid was the oppression of the vast majority of the population. It was simply wrong, and thus had to be ended, no matter what came afterwards.

You are trying to hide it, but you are defending apartheid.

Whites built their country on stolen land, thus it was illegitimate from the very start. If you steal something and get caught, you will not only be punished, but your prey will be taken away from you. Imagine you steal a musical instruments from someone else and make good music on it. The police won't let you keep the instrument just because you make good music on it.

Again, it is totally irrelevant if blacks are doing better now than during apartheid. Many are doing better. But it is irrelevant regarding the legitimacy of apartheid.

Provide sources for your claim that so many people immigrated to apartheid SA. I haven't found any reasonable statistics, yet.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:26 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 16,645,249 times
Reputation: 5695
Quote:
=desertdetroiter;32612687]No sir...YOU'RE mad, not me. I called it absolutely perfectly.
I am not the least bit mad. A bit disappointed...for the simple fact you are usually not this obviously obstinate and...well, how to say it?...lashing out. You called me a "White Supremacist" earlier...and you know that is nothing more than bull****. That was a dumb and baseless statement.

What did you "call perfect"? What? I mean, as in the sense of a better South Africa. I am still waiting on that answer? And to tell you the truth, it is not really all that important that I get one. You owe me no explanation and neither do I owe you one. If you feel the falling of the nation is better because it is now run by blacks (ANC), then fine. But IS it, really?

Quote:
At the end of the day, I have no reason to be mad or frustrated. The guys that should be running that country ARE running that country. The guys you want to run the country, subjugate and oppress the natives, AREN'T running the country.
Oh lord, this is ridiculous. But ok, whatever. If most blacks are better off under ANC rule in your estimation? Then so be it. If you really think so, then ok. Your conscience has to be the one that justifies "necklacing" and all.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:32 PM
Status: "MAGA" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: New Jersey
10,451 posts, read 5,985,557 times
Reputation: 10272
South Africa is a dump. If I had 6 months to live and could do a world-tour in that time and had to leave off one "real" country, it would be South Africa. Even if last, I wouldn't want to be murdered at 5 months and three weeks. But is that Mandella's fault? I would think not. I suppose he did good by leading a violent revolution and then preaching peach once he got what he wanted, but it's not his fault the country is a total crap-hole.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:49 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 16,645,249 times
Reputation: 5695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I don't really understand your logic. It lacks moral foundation.
So says you. Because apartheid has ended -- which it really hasn't, it just took a different shape and form -- where is the better moral foundation? Is it under ANC rule. today? If so, please explain how and why...and the differences? I am fair minded...

Quote:
Apartheid was the oppression of the vast majority of the population. It was simply wrong, and thus had to be ended, no matter what came afterwards.
Yep, it had to be ended...and what replaced it. You know the truth because it cannot be hidden.

Quote:
You are trying to hide it, but you are defending apartheid.
LMAO. Good, I am defending apartheid, and not trying to hide it. You bet I am. I am also a racist, sexist, homophobic and all that other stuff that keeps being invented as meaningless words. Whatever the hell... Fine. So now, does that make you feel all nice and smug and better about yourself and self-esteem, and morally superior? If so, great. I did my good deed for the day!

BUT...by the same standard, YOU are defending what replaced it, which is "necklacing", turning South Africa into the "rape capital of the world", and murders being rampant, and into a third world nation. Which is better? Yeah, blacks are really better off under ANC rule, right? Right?

You (and a few others on here), just cannot accept the truth. Because the truth is infuriating.

Quote:
Whites built their country on stolen land, thus it was illegitimate from the very start. If you steal something and get caught, you will not only be punished, but your prey will be taken away from you. Imagine you steal a musical instruments from someone else and make good music on it. The police won't let you keep the instrument just because you make good music on it.
Oh spare this holy lecture. What land was stolen? If there is no concept of ownership of land, then it can't be stolen for that reason alone. The white South Africans -- like it or not -- came and made something of it; turned what was essentially a stone-age culture, into the most prosperous country on the continent. And there is no way around it. The simple wheel hadn't even been thought of before the Boers took control.

And yeah, that old line about how whites are evil incarnate, with no justification whatsoever. Hell, it appears, you apparently hate whites, just as much as you accuse others of hating blacks (or any other minority). Which is insane, as my favorite students for my decades of teaching were black kids. I LOVED them. Funny thing though that whites have no worse, nor any better -- depending on the definition -- of human rights violations than anybody else. This is another pathetic bunch of crap you present.

Quote:
Again, it is totally irrelevant if blacks are doing better now than during apartheid. Many are doing better. But it is irrelevant regarding the legitimacy of apartheid.
Sure, I see your point. The most important thing is to end apartheid. That necklacing (i.e. burned to death by an oiled-filled tire), and murders and rapes increase by an astronomical amount? Welllll, that is the price to be paid, right? Gawd, where do you people get your notions of a sense of moral superiority, when the historical record destroys it?

Quote:
Provide sources for your claim that so many people immigrated to apartheid SA. I haven't found any reasonable statistics, yet.
I have already done so. Back up a few pages, and look at some of the links.

Have a good evening. If the truth offends, welllll, it seem it offends in direct correlation to truth.

Last edited by TexasReb; 12-15-2013 at 12:24 AM..
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Old 12-15-2013, 07:02 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,286,582 times
Reputation: 5895
Word is the "Coloured" people in SA got jacked, again. Not "white" enough for apartheid; not "Black" enough for the ANC. Coloureds ain't real happy and I DON'T blame them.

Too, MANY American "Blacks" and "Hispanics" would've called "Coloured" there
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Old 12-15-2013, 07:39 AM
 
8,641 posts, read 8,778,597 times
Reputation: 5185
Yes, Mandela saved South Africa from the fate of Rwanda, The Congo, Somolia or Sudan, when their colonial era systems finally collapsed they fell into complete chaos. Rwanda and the Congo fell into a genocide that killed over 6,000,000 combined. Mandela should be credited with saving South Africa from anarchy.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:43 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,286,582 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Yes, Mandela saved South Africa from the fate of Rwanda, The Congo, Somolia or Sudan, when their colonial era systems finally collapsed they fell into complete chaos. Rwanda and the Congo fell into a genocide that killed over 6,000,000 combined. Mandela should be credited with saving South Africa from anarchy.
IF South Africa did melt down that way 20 years ago; it would've been a full on "holocaust" IMHO AND the "whites" might've won with help from the "Coloured" and Zulus. Those 2 groups DON'T like the ANC crowd. But there'd be bad losses on all sides like you said.
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