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Old 12-11-2013, 11:28 AM
4,176 posts, read 3,884,534 times
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Originally Posted by Icy Tea View Post
Open borders and illegal aliens bringing in diseases not just crime and economic weakening.
Oh, there are plenty of stupid Americans who forgo vaccinations.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Icy Tea View Post
Open borders and illegal aliens bringing in diseases not just crime and economic weakening.
Wrong on three counts

1) Mexico has a pretty high vaccination rate
2) Open borders allow patrols to focus on true criminals, instead of wasting time on people looking for work. Closed borders results in more criminals.
3) economically immigration into a country is always positive (at least by any study i've ever seen)
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:29 AM
Location: Steeler Nation
6,868 posts, read 3,745,582 times
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
No. I'm thinking about measles as well all of those former childhood diseases. People in the past really didn't panic over them. Now they panic, they think measles is deadly for most people when in fact it's deadly for very few.
Measles is dangerous to pregnant women and adults never exposed to it.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:57 AM
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,870,497 times
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Make it a criminal act, punishable by jail.
Test the kids when they get into school.
vaccinate them and then go arrest their parents.

This is what you really want to do right ?
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:18 PM
Location: Georgia, USA
21,481 posts, read 26,078,274 times
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Apologies for the length of this. I probably should have done separate posts.

Originally Posted by Patricius Maximus View Post
S If these vaccines do not protect those vaccinated from the disease, then it would be time to start asking some questions about their effectiveness.
No vaccine is 100% effective, and there are those who are too young to be vaccinated or who have medical reasons not to be vaccinated. How would you feel if someone who was healthy but not vaccinated caught measles and gave it to your newborn or your child who was on chemo for leukemia?

Also, about children dying and vaccines preventing that, it's also uncommon for an unvaccinated child to die of a disease today, probably because we have much better sanitation and medical care than we did, say, 100 years ago, and the diseases are not as prevalent as they were.
And why are the diseases less prevalent? Because of vaccines. When vaccination rates drop, the prevalence increases. When unvaccinated children get these diseases, some of them die.

CDC - Pertussis: Outbreak Trends

"18 pertussis-related deaths during 2012 have been reported to CDC. The majority of deaths occurred among infants younger than 3 months of age."

Infants do not get their first whooping cough vaccine until 2 months.

Vaccines did play a part in the 20th century improvements in child mortality, but to make a leap from that to claiming, in effect, that an unvaccinated child today would suffer a fate fitting a compatriot of Oliver Twist, is unwarranted. It's worth noting that generally speaking even on the off chance you do get these once-common childhood diseases, the chances of you being killed, crippled, or even having lifetime effects of any kind are remote. So it is with vaccines; however, you only have a possibility of receiving these diseases, whereas you have a certainty of receiving the vaccine. That means that for the vaccine to be worth the risk in most of these cases, the chances for death, injury, or adverse reaction from the vaccination would need to be at least an order or two of magnitude lower than for the disease itself.
The truth is that the risks of vaccines are many orders of magnitude less than the risks of the disease they prevent.

Risk of death from measles:

Measles Still Has a Devastating Impact in Unvaccinated Populations

"In developed countries, less than one in 1,000 children with measles die." The fatality rate is extremely high in populations with malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency.

Risk of death from measles vaccine:

MMR Vaccine (Measles, Mumps, and Rubella): MedlinePlus Drug Information

"Severe Problems (Very Rare):

Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)

Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including: Deafness; long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness; permanent brain damage. These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine."

In my view this is not true of the flu vaccine, where the disease itself is mild in the vast majority of cases involving healthy people, as opposed to the common (mild) adverse reactions associated with the vaccine. However, any given person will only contract the flu once every few years, as opposed to the annual flu vaccination. In my humble view the vaccinations are worth it in the cases of childhood diseases such as measles and chicken pox. Many of you here may not agree with me on these conclusions, which is precisely why I (or anyone else) shouldn't be allowed to dictate to the rest of you what sort of vaccinations you must get. In short, it is a personal lifestyle choice.
You must have never had influenza. It, too, can kill, including healthy children.

I will conclude by pointing out that if the rates of these once-common diseases rise, then that would give more weight to the risk of contracting the disease versus the risk of the vaccination, and thus more people would prefer to get vaccinated.
Yes, even the anti-vaccine contingent changes its tune when its members actually get sick.

Measles outbreak tied to Texas megachurch sickens 21 - NBC News.com

Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Horse hocky .... I had the measels, mumps, and chickenpox as a child, and I've enjoyed the benefit of the immune system that those childhood diseases help build, and I'm now 56 years old ... taking no medications, and haven't had the need for medical care or even a doctor's office visit in 30 years.

The reality is, when I was a kid, these things were COMMON .. and nobody went into a panic. It was part of growing up, and I never heard of anyone suffering severe reactions, let alone death, for god sake. That crap is propaganda from the vaccine pushers. Every kid got these illnesses ... and yes, they were not pleasant ... but we also didn't suffer autism, childhood diabetes, asthma, arthitis, ADHD, and other neurological malfunctions that are at epidemic levels today. You stupid people and your vaccine idiocy are beyond hope. Just take your doses of poison, and leave the smart people alone!!!

But the article said 175 cases .. in 9 "outbreaks" .... oooooh be scared, be very scared!! When I was a kid, every kid in the whole damned school got this stuff, and we all survived!
Because you did not personally know someone who died from a childhood disease means no one ever died from a childhood disease, huh? If Tex did not personally observe it, it never happened. I see.

Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Whose science and paid for by who? A good many shrinks believed in Freud for a long time. Not so many now. Is the science a matter of the ends justify the means? It is acceptable for X amount of children to be harmed because Y amount aren't. Easy to say until it happens to you.
That could be worded another way. Is it acceptable for 100,000 X children to be harmed by a preventable disease because none are vaccinated?

Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
True. There are a ton of factors that could cause or contribute to autism. My issue is with people who pretend to believe that the increase is fake or due to "over-diagnosis".
There is a difference between "over-diagnosis" and an increase in the prevalence of autism due to changes in nomenclature. The diagnosis did not exist at all until it was first described in 1943. Does that mean it did not exist before then? That is highly unlikely. As awareness increased, the diagnosis has been made more often. In the past, many people now called autistic were given another diagnosis, including childhood schizophrenia. They were always autistic, they just had a different label. Many people were just called "mentally retarded". Mildly affected kids were just "shy". There was no treatment, so many just did not get a diagnosis at all. Now, having the diagnosis may be important in gaining access to treatment and special education. So, yes, changes in who gets diagnosed are a very big factor in the increased number getting diagnosed.

Asperger's has been removed from the book of diagnostic codes altogether. That means the diagnosis is going to disappear. It will now be a part of autism spectrum disorder. Does that mean everyone with Asperger's is going to go "poof" and disappear? No. However, the number of people with autism spectrum disorder is going to increase, because now it will include people formerly diagnosed with Asperger's.

Originally Posted by Egbert View Post
The fact is lots of stuff in settlements is sealed for a variety of reasons. I really cannot see why you would dismiss all the science over what very well could have been manufacturing defect in a limited number of MMR vaccines that someone doesn't want to be public.
I think you will find that the consensus of the scientific community is that vaccines probably did not play a part in cases in which children with conditions that can produce autistic symptoms. Courts may have decided otherwise. The "bad batch of vaccines" argument has no basis in fact.

Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
We can also say that very little comparative effort has been put into finding the cause of autism or autism spectrum disabilities.
Imagine if 1 in every 100 people suddenly started contracting polio... what if it was 1 in every 1000?
Would a token effort be all that was applied to find the cause?
Do you really believe no one is doing research on autism? Really? The sad thing is all the money wasted in refuting the mess created by Wakefield.

Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post

Smallpox is the mother of vaccines, and what a ***** she was ... causing massive death in every vaccinated region in Europe until public outrage caused the ghouls in charge to stop mandatory vacxinations. Every place that had mandetory vaccinations suffered DRAMATICALLY higher incidence and death rates compared to unvaccinated communities.
Do you have a source for this statement?

The reality is that smallpox was naturally erradicated by better hygiene, and sanitation, and the vaccine did nothing but weaken peoples immune system, making them more vulnerable to the disease. The vaccine couldn't have worked, because it used "cowpox" virua as the active ingrwdient, which was not at all the smallpox virus.
You do realize that small pox was eradicated in Africa, do you not? In areas without access to the best of 'hygiene and sanitation".

By the way, the virus used in the eradication of smallpox was vaccinia, not cowpox, and the smallpox and vaccinia viruses are similar enough that vaccinia can be used to produce immunity to smallpox. Cowpox, vaccinia, and the smallpox virus (variola) probably all evolved from a common ancestor.

Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Measles is a horrible disease? It didn't used to be. It used to just be a normal childhood disease, you got it, stayed home from school a couple days and almost don't remember having it.
Just because you never saw someone get seriously ill from a common childhood illness does not mean it never happened.

Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Another one who doesn't understand epidemiology. Since you're quoting my link, I'll quote it too:

In 2011, the number of people reported to have measles in the United States was higher than usual: 220 people were reported to have the disease. That’s more than any year since 1996. Measles sent 32% of these people to the hospital. People who had measles spread the disease to others. This caused 16 different measles outbreaks in 2011.

For the math challenged, that's 1 in 3. That's a lot.

Here's another link:

CDC - Measles: Complications

**About 30% of measles cases develop one or more complications, including

Pneumonia, which is the complication that is most often the cause of death in young children.
Ear infections occur in about 1 in 10 measles cases and permanent loss of hearing can result.
Diarrhea is reported in about 8% of cases.

These complications are more common among children under 5 years of age and adults over 20 years old.

Even in previously healthy children, measles can be a serious illness requiring hospitalization. As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, and about 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis. (This is an inflammation of the brain that can lead to convulsions, and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.) For every 1,000 children who get measles, 1 or 2 will die from it. Measles also can make a pregnant woman have a miscarriage, give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.

In developing countries, where malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency are common, measles has been known to kill as many as one out of four people. It is the leading cause of blindness among African children. It is estimated that in 2008 there were 164,000 measles deaths worldwide.

(Mod note: govt. website)

Some years ago, I was having a hearing test and it showed a small hearing loss. The tester said it was probably from having had measles as a child. Unlike a lot of people posting here, I was a child prior to the measles vaccine. Everyone got it. I missed THREE WEEKS of school with measles, and my mom was no slouch with school attendance. If you could get up and get off your bed, you went.
After reading that, can anyone still think measles is no big deal?

Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Then you would wonder why those Europeans with their super-advanced health care system aren't panic-striken over it and getting everyone vaccinated. Your link even says that measles is common in Europe.
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It can be a mild disease. In a few individuals it is not.

My kids were all given the MMR, but I just don't go along with the Chicken Little approach on each and every childhood disease. I suppose they coudn't come up with a bird flu or swine flu so now they're trying to get people panicking over measles.

At least they could focus on the immunosuppressed and sickly and try to protect them -- or if travelers are bringing in the virus, then limit travel?
People in Europe bought into the Wakefield mess and stopped vaccinating. That is why measles has increased there. Did you forget that Wakefield is British? The sick and immunosuppressed cannot be vaccinated. The only way to protect them is to vaccinate everyone else.

I would be quite happy for there to be a requirement that you demonstrate immunity to vaccine preventable diseases in order to come into this country. That includes American citizens who travel abroad. If you want to return, show proof of vaccination or a valid medical reason not to be.

Originally Posted by malamute View Post
No. I'm thinking about measles as well all of those former childhood diseases. People in the past really didn't panic over them. Now they panic, they think measles is deadly for most people when in fact it's deadly for very few.
How many deaths do you feel are acceptable from a disease that can be prevented with a vaccine?

Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
What's the cost of being off-school for a few days versus being stuck with a needle the size of the Empire State Building filled with yicky yellow stuff?

The Laws of Economics.

Opportunity Costs.

The money wasted on silly vaccines could be used for research for more important treatments or vaccines, uh, like, you know, cancer.


Sorry, you cannot argue that vaccines are not economically advantageous. Every vaccine goes through a cost/benefit analysis. If the costs of treating the disease would not exceed the costs of the vaccine, the vaccine would never be marketed. They are cost effective, especially when associated costs such a lost time from work are considered.

For MMR:

An Economic Analysis of the Current Universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella Vaccination Program in the United States

"Our study shows that the current 2-dose MMR vaccination program results in substantial cost savings (∼$3.5 billion and ∼$7.6 billion from the direct cost and societal perspectives,respectively) and high BC ratios: For every dollar spent, the program saves >$14 of direct costs and >$10 of additional costs to society. Because of the success of the 2-dose vaccination program, measles, mumps, and rubella are no longer major health threats in the United States. Although not reflected in this analysis and difficult to quantify, the dramatic decrease in pain and suffering to family and friends of the patient with measles, mumps, or rubella is a direct result of the achievement. The MMR vaccination program in the United States compares very favorably with other medical interventions because not only does it achieve significant public health benefit in terms of reduction in morbidity, hospitalization, and mortality from measles, mumps, and rubella, but it achieves these benefits at a substantial cost savings. This is a key component of the successful vaccination program in the United States [37–41]."

Originally Posted by Icy Tea View Post
Open borders and illegal aliens bringing in diseases not just crime and economic weakening.
Illegal aliens are not the problem. Imported measles is resulting from unvaccinated citizens traveling abroad and legal visitors from areas with endemic measles. See the article about the anti-vaccine church above.

Measles — United States, January 1–August 24, 2013

"Among the 159 [measles] cases, 157 (99%) were import-associated, and two had an unknown source. Forty-two (26%) importations (23 returning U.S residents and 19 visitors to the United States) from 18 countries were reported, and 21 (50%) of the importations were from the WHO European Region."

Measles is mostly coming from Europe.

Mexico, by the way, has a high immunization rate. A doctor I know who trained in Mexico tells me that if an unvaccinated child is identified, someone goes to the home and gives the vaccine. A parent need not even be available to consent.
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