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"That is Judaism" is not an excuse for failing to exercise your capacity for rationality, or for not following the ethic of reciprocity, which if I am not mistaken is also strongly emphasized in Judaism.
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. —Leviticus 19:18
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn it. —Talmud, Shabbat 31a
"That is Judaism" is just your excuse for cherry-picking specific sections from scriptures to support your own preexisting prejudices. You can claim otherwise until your face turns blue and you pass out from oxygen deprivation, but your motives are as transparent and pellucid as glass to us.
What is your stance on people who stand in front of bulldozers until they are run over, or chain themselves to trees or doors, offering to die instead of give in? I hope you feel the same towards their dedication to cause, as much as you feel disgust towards a religious person following their religion.
BTW,
Quote:
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn it. —Talmud, Shabbat 31a
, also means that if you found it distasteful to be forced into doing something you felt was wrong, forcing someone else to do something that THEY find distasteful , whether you disagree with it or not, is wrong.
Is purchaser flamboyantly annoying the baker?
Having 2 gay family members. When they drink they are abusive about pushing gayness down everyone's throats. Like we are wrong to be straight. Yeesh. Trying to recruit...They are both mentally ill, self(ETOH) treated md diagnosed manic depressive. Talk about embarrassing and hateful but only w alcohol on board.
Our rights are being abused absurdly.
Imho
A store owner can accept or decline any work. Has nothing to do w discrimination. Either he is willing or he isn't.
What is your stance on people who stand in front of bulldozers until they are run over, or chain themselves to trees or doors, offering to die instead of give in? I hope you feel the same towards their dedication to cause, as much as you feel disgust towards a religious person following their religion.
It depends on the cause. Standing up and showing bravery in the face of danger or death in a battle to right a terrible wrong or achieve some kind of social justice is one thing. Doing so because you don't want to follow your state's anti-discrimination laws is not commendable at all. I would also like to clarify that I do not feel any kind of general disgust at the thought of religious people following their beliefs. While I don't agree with the concept of believing anything on faith alone, I do not find it disgusting, merely unfortunate and inadvisable. The disgust sets in when people begin using their beliefs as justification for assault, for murder, for discrimination, and for causing general suffering among people who have done nothing to them. It is especially disgusting when they don't even follow their own beliefs with any kind of consistency, but instead pick and choose which tenets they will follow and which tenets they won't based on their own personal prejudices.
Quote:
BTW, , also means that if you found it distasteful to be forced into doing something you felt was wrong, forcing someone else to do something that THEY find distasteful , whether you disagree with it or not, is wrong.
First, nobody is forcing the baker to make a cake. If they don't want to follow the laws of their state, they can pay the fines (should they be levied) or close their business. In my opinion, they don't have enough good sense to be running one in the first place.
Second, in situations like this, a person's motivations for their actions must be taken into account, as well as their whether or not their stated reasons for behaving the way they do are consistent with their past actions and choices. In this case, the baker has on several occasions baked cakes for unbiblical and even blatantly sinful people or events. In light of this, we can clearly determine that the baker is not particularly concerned with their religious morality, but rather has a personal issue with homosexuals and is discriminating against them for arbitrary, ad hoc reasons.
Third, anti-discrimination laws exist for a reason. Allowing this business to discriminate at will would set a terrible precedent. If we allow one business to do so, why not another? And another? And eventually why not all of them? Soon you end up with a situation where certain classes of people cannot, or cannot easily, find and receive the services they need to go about their lives and conduct their daily business without undue inconvenience and duress.
For these reasons and many others, people who refuse to be socially responsible and just must be compelled to do so or face consequences, for the greater good of society as a whole.
Last edited by Lunar Delta; 12-09-2013 at 09:07 AM..
1) I'm not Christian. FWIW, I don't believe in any super sky friends.
2) I never suggested spitting or putting anything in food which would render it dangerous. I merely said there must be some outdated ingredients lying around the kitchen or perhaps if it was left out overnight and became a bit stale...
I'll try to use smaller words next time to allow you to better understand.
Oh, I understand, you advocate doing poor or inadequate service to people because you do not observe their right to equal service. How would you like it if some one thought you deserved second rate food or stale food because they did not approve of you. Talk about morality.
First, nobody is forcing the baker to make a cake. If they don't want to follow the laws of their state, they can pay the fines (should they be levied) or close their business. In my opinion, they don't have enough good sense to be running one in the first place.
That's like saying you are not forced to obey laws regarding theft of property. Go ahead and steal, you just have to be willing to go to prison. It's not free will and choice if there is a punishment and consequence involved. The business was most likely around well before the law came into place and "sexual orientation" was suddenly deemed a discrimination class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Delta
Second, in situations like this, a person's motivations for their actions must be taken into account, as well as their whether or not their stated reasons for behaving the way they do are consistent with their past actions and choices. In this case, the baker has on several occasions baked cakes for unbiblical and even blatantly sinful people or events. In light of this, we can clearly determine that the baker is not particularly concerned with their religious morality, but rather has a personal issue with homosexuals and is discriminating against them for arbitrary, ad hoc reasons.
Some Christians view gay marriage as a huge slap in the face to God. God designs this perfect institution called marriage, even designs the female and male bodies to join together physically as a reward. This is not a case of a baker choosing to service someone who commits adultry vs gay marriage. The later involves actual participation in the event. The only way it would be equivalent is if the baker was forced to cater a swinger's club event.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Delta
Third, anti-discrimination laws exist for a reason. Allowing this business to discriminate at will would set a terrible precedent. If we allow one business to do so, why not another? And another? And eventually why not all of them? Soon you end up with a situation where certain classes of people cannot, or cannot easily, find and receive the services they need to go about their lives and conduct their daily business without undue inconvenience and duress.
For these reasons and many others, people who refuse to be socially responsible and just must be compelled to do so or face consequences, for the greater good of society as a whole.
The problem is where do you draw the line with classifying people. Sexual orientation is a loose term, and people can change their orientation at will apparently. There should be exceptions when the law involves a moral conflict.
Some Christians view gay marriage as a huge slap in the face to God. God
designs this perfect institution called marriage, even designs the female and
male bodies to join together physically as a reward. This is not a case of a
baker choosing to service someone who commits adultry vs gay marriage. The
later involves actual participation in the event. The only way it would be
equivalent is if the baker was forced to cater a swinger's club
event.
I guess you missed the bit where they baked a cake for a DOG WEDDING.
Your god must be so proud, what with you going around saying you want to poison people you don't like.
What's next? Hams filled with hemlock? Shellfish filled with strychnine? Rabbit filled with rat poison?
Bacon filled with botulism?
Why in the HELL should the baker have to get bullied into going against his faith? The rights of the homosexual are not superior to or in any way supersede the rights of everyone else’s especially where religion is involved. These wonderful little darlings readily and without difficulty got their so-called “wedding” cake somewhere else and as such this particular bakery was most certainly not their only venue yet they felt compelled to punish him anyway for daring to have the audacity of being honest and upfront with them about his faith. Perhaps you would rather he keep his mouth shut, smile at them, and foul up the order because this is the direction that this heading.
Instead of bullying the religious the homosexual would get far better publicity and create more friends by demonstrating a tolerance for the faithful instead of bullying and attacking decent hard working people which reflects exceptionally poorly on the homosexual in the eyes of the general population.
Why in the HELL should the baker have to get bullied into going against his faith? The rights of the homosexual are not superior to or in any way supersede the rights of everyone else’s especially where religion is involved. These wonderful little darlings readily and without difficulty got their so-called “wedding” cake somewhere else and as such this particular bakery was most certainly not their only venue yet they felt compelled to punish him anyway for daring to have the audacity of being honest and upfront with them about his faith. Perhaps you would rather he keep his mouth shut, smile at them, and foul up the order because this is the direction that this heading.
Instead of bullying the religious the homosexual would get far better publicity and create more friends by demonstrating a tolerance for the faithful instead of bullying and attacking decent hard working people which reflects exceptionally poorly on the homosexual in the eyes of the general population.
And your personal religious beliefs do not give you the right to violate the laws that all other businesses are required to follow. If your personal religious beliefs require you to break the laws of doing business, you should not open a business. Religious beliefs are not a get out of jail free, or get away with whatever you want card.
And your personal religious beliefs do not give you the right to violate the laws that all other businesses are required to follow. If your personal religious beliefs require you to break the laws of doing business, you should not open a business. Religious beliefs are not a get out of jail free, or get away with whatever you want card.
You would get much better publicity and win more friends demonstrating tolerance for the religious. Just because you can kick somebody’s teeth in and destroy their livelihood doesn’t mean that you have to unless you believe that tolerance is a one way street.
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