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Two vastly different entities stuck in the same country thru a quirk of history. Time to move on without each other. The North and South share almost none of the same values nor culture. One region (South) is anti-govt and anti-tax, the other believes in the rule of law and sensible responsible govt.
Your ignorance of this country and especially the South is appalling. A little education is a good thing.
While there of course are always differences within regions, the Mountain West is usually recognized as the most individualistic part of the country but it might be interesting comparing the South, the Northeast and the Midwest in this regard.
Some people classify Southerners as "collectivist" because of things like abortion and gay marriage, and because of the Southern hospitality and a sense of community and belonging for many people. I don't know about northern rural areas, cause I don't have much experience in them, but in Northeast cities many people seem to be in their bubble, many people don't care to know their neighbors and strangers rarely speak to each other, even if its just saying hello and acknowledging someone walking past you or getting in an elevator with you. I think everyday things like this get people to claim the Northeast is more individualistic.
But in other ways the South is a lot more individualistic than the Northeast IMO. For example most Southern states are right to work and do not have a union tradition, the tea party is most powerful in the South, and the South has a lot of opposition to big government, which can be seen in the support for gun rights, the opposition to socialist medicine, the opposition to the redistribution of wealth and to high taxes. Many Southern metro areas are also less strict in zoning and value property rights more, with fewer trends toward government enforced 'transit-oriented development". Southerners are the most generous when it comes to donating to private charity and believe this kind of thing should be done individually while people in the Northeast seem more collectivist with their support for high taxes and lots of government regulations and control. Very few places in the South have things like plastic bag taxes or soda bans. People in the South are also more opposed to things like food stamps and Section 8 housing while in the Northeast you hear a lot of the "we need to benefit the whole society" mentality. The "don't tread on me" mentality is one that I personally hold, except when it comes to religious issues. But then Southerners are more willing to say Merry Christmas and don't care if someone objects to it and insists on 'happy holidays".
So what do y'all think of collectivism and individualism in the South vs the Northeast and Midwest?
I've lived in several different parts of the country and from my experience, I would say if any area has more "individualistic" residents, it is definitely the West (not the west coast).
This is only my personal opinion. To me the Northeast is a hub--not a bubble. Many more people there are aware and interested in what is going on in the rest of the country and world and lots of domestic and international visitors pass through. Both Boston and NYC are crossroads of the country and world. On the other hand, the South seems to be in a cultural bubble and does not appear really interested in the rest of the country or the world. The Midwest seems a lot like the South, only somewhat blander. Both areas seem very conservative and insular.
You speak of the generosity of the South? The first time I drove from the Northeast to Florida, I drove into South Carolina and was met with a billboard that said "the eyes of the Klan are upon you." It really shocked me coming from a fairly open minded place, and I found it intimidating and hostile, not warm and welcoming. I drove down to go to school in Florida and one of the first things that happened was that I got a parking ticket. I approached the car as the cop was writing the ticket and he handed it to me and snarkily said "there you go, Yankee." Once again I was pretty shocked by that, as I had never heard anyone in the north ever call a Southerner a "Reb." Yeah--this was a number of decades ago, but I just don't buy that Southern hospitality thing.
You contrast Southern charity "private giving" with Northeastern feeling that you do what is best for the society as a whole. So one could argue that you are saying Southerners are selfish and provincial, and Northeasterners are altruistic and want what is best for everyone. I think your comparison is apples to oranges. Personally I think Northeasterners are actually more invidualistic thinkers than either Southerners or Midwesterners and tend to be very up front with their opinions. There is not a lot of "group" think, and Northeasterners are often stereotyped by Southerners and Midwesterners as rude because they are very frank and honest. Like I said--just my opinion.
Conservatives don't respect the Rule of Law? The current administration (or what passes for an administration) has provided ample evidence that the exact opposite holds true.
I should have clarified. It is a constant battle with Southern states to prove that the US Constitution reigns supreme over state constitutions. It is called the Supremacy Clause and it is as clear as day. No state law trumps a fed law. Period. But over and over again southerners almost seem to relish re-fighting the civil war over this very issue.
That and the crazy notion that the Founding Fathers wrote into the Constitution the demise of the Fed Govt via secession and the Tenth Amendment. Laughable. Funny how they required Congressional approval for the admission of territories and states, yet at the whim of a state legislature a state can walk away. It is preposterous. Not one single mechanism in the Fed Constitution for a state to leave, yet I'm sure a vast majority of Southerners believe by a simple 51/49 vote they can strip US citizenship from the rest of their state. It is so tiring to fight this battle over and over with them. I'm sure if Lincoln were running for President today vs Jeff Davis he would lose every Southern state (only the white vote of course). I just wish white Southerners would accept the results of the Civil War and move on. Yet every time I'm there, and I go frequently for work, I'm struck by the goading of Civil War arguments.
Example, recently I was travelling down thru PA on the way to Winchester VA with an Army Colonel. He had the gall to look towards Gettysburg and state this: "too bad the wrong side one that one". He was a Southerner. Need I say more. What a despicable example of a US Officer to endorse treason like that.
Because of all this, I have decided it isn't worth it anymore to be in the same country with them. We are just too different politically.
About sharing the same values and culture, how about people talking about the reaction to Kennedy's death around the country as the 50th anniversary passed. I just find this disgusting that people actually were happy and cheered the Presidents death in the South. Not everyone of course, but quite a few, and no where near the universally sad reaction in the rest of the country. The South has always been a nation apart. They were forced under arms to return to the Union, and I believe it was a mistake.
Are Southerners remorseful about this part of their past?
This week, we are hearing a lot about the assassination of President Kennedy who died 50 years ago. We remember the nation's tears and sadness.
But what many of us have forgotten is that America was a very different place then, and not everyone cried.
"There were definitely tears, especially when we got to the church, and that's when the priest then did tell us that the President had died,†said Donohue.
In most of the country, that was the reaction.
Another professor at Columbus State has much different memories. He was living in Jackson, Mississippi.
Douglas Gray was a sophomore at Murrah High School. He was taking a test when the announcement came that someone had fired on Kennedy's motorcade. His teacher ordered the class to be silent, but from other rooms, this is what he heard.
"Cheering and whooping and hollering – applause, and people were clearly ecstatic,†said Douglas Gray, Columbus State Communications Department Chair.
The next period, in music class, students learned the President had died. That teacher ordered everyone to stand and sing “Dixie.â€
I saw Bill Clinton interviewed about this very thing. He said the reaction in his school was that many were joyful Kennedy was killed.
I was in my calculus class, my fourth-period advanced math class. I was a senior in high school. It was right after lunch that I heard. My teacher, Doyle Coe, was the assistant principal, and he was called to the phone. He came in totally ashen-faced and told us the president had been shot. I remember it as if it were yesterday. I was heartbroken. I was hoping he would live. We didn’t know in the beginning whether he was dead. I just remember being totally bereft. There was a lot of hatred of Kennedy in the South over civil rights. The people who hated him, the right-wingers in the South, didn’t think he was being a pansy on civil rights. I remember walking back to our main school building, and all these students were there. This girl who was in the band with me—I liked her, liked her whole family—said, “Maybe it will work out well for the country.â€I knew they were much more conservative than I was, but I was just appalled. I couldn’t imagine why anybody would kill him. I didn’t know anything then about what later came out with all the conspiracy theories about Cuba and the Mafia and all the stuff I read.
So, we really all do share the same culture? I just don't believe it.
I've lived in several different parts of the country and from my experience, I would say if any area has more "individualistic" residents, it is definitely the West (not the west coast).
This is only my personal opinion. To me the Northeast is a hub--not a bubble. Many more people there are aware and interested in what is going on in the rest of the country and world and lots of domestic and international visitors pass through. Both Boston and NYC are crossroads of the country and world. On the other hand, the South seems to be in a cultural bubble and does not appear really interested in the rest of the country or the world. The Midwest seems a lot like the South, only somewhat blander. Both areas seem very conservative and insular.
You speak of the generosity of the South? The first time I drove from the Northeast to Florida, I drove into South Carolina and was met with a billboard that said "the eyes of the Klan are upon you." It really shocked me coming from a fairly open minded place, and I found it intimidating and hostile, not warm and welcoming. I drove down to go to school in Florida and one of the first things that happened was that I got a parking ticket. I approached the car as the cop was writing the ticket and he handed it to me and snarkily said "there you go, Yankee." Once again I was pretty shocked by that, as I had never heard anyone in the north ever call a Southerner a "Reb." Yeah--this was a number of decades ago, but I just don't buy that Southern hospitality thing.
You contrast Southern charity "private giving" with Northeastern feeling that you do what is best for the society as a whole. So one could argue that you are saying Southerners are selfish and provincial, and Northeasterners are altruistic and want what is best for everyone. I think your comparison is apples to oranges. Personally I think Northeasterners are actually more invidualistic thinkers than either Southerners or Midwesterners and tend to be very up front with their opinions. There is not a lot of "group" think, and Northeasterners are often stereotyped by Southerners and Midwesterners as rude because they are very frank and honest. Like I said--just my opinion.
What I bolded in your post is exactly why I feel they are so different culturally than the rest of the US.
They are chomping at the bit to start arguments over the Civil War to this day. I've experienced it myself in Jackson, MS.
And the hatred of the Fed Govt is palpable down there. You know, the legitimate elected government created by the Constitution is the one they despise.
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Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
I don't see how legalizing marijuana and rewarding illegal immigration against federal laws promote the "rule of law". I also don't see how opposing the death penalty and liberal judges refusing to send people to prison for long terms promote the rule of law. I would prefer not having lots of laws but if they are going to pass a law then they must enforce it.
I would not include plastic bag taxes or soda bans, or banning trans fats in restaurants, or forcing privately owned businesses to ban smoking to be "sensible". I think the latter 3 actually infringe on individual property rights and the rights of business owners.
Federal Law does trump state law.
"rewarding illegal aliens" is a broad comment and really means nothing to your comment about rule of law.
Death penalty has nothing to do with rule of law as states can choose if they have it or not.
laws on prison sentencing usually have a broad definition of how long someone can be sentenced for a crime, it is the judge's(or Jury's) job to determine how long those sentences are. it is in no way a violation of the law just because you disagree with the length of the sentence.
Completely agree on the smoking ban thing even though i hate cigarettes and smoke.
I have yet to hear about a ban on soda, if you mean size of the container, then your argument should also apply to alcohol and many other things that are regulated the same way.
"rewarding illegal aliens" is a broad comment and really means nothing to your comment about rule of law.
Death penalty has nothing to do with rule of law as states can choose if they have it or not.
laws on prison sentencing usually have a broad definition of how long someone can be sentenced for a crime, it is the judge's(or Jury's) job to determine how long those sentences are. it is in no way a violation of the law just because you disagree with the length of the sentence.
Completely agree on the smoking ban thing even though i hate cigarettes and smoke.
I have yet to hear about a ban on soda, if you mean size of the container, then your argument should also apply to alcohol and many other things that are regulated the same way.
Giving illegal aliens drivers licenses and especially giving them in-state college tuition is clearly rewarding illegal immigration. So these people have broken federal law by coming here illegally and yet the states are rewarding them for their illegality and their criminal behavior.
I see the dependence on the federal government in the northeast and the mindset that government knows best to be more of a collectivist mentality, vs the attitude of we know whats best for ourselves that's more prevalent in the South.
Regrading generosity, people in the South and other conservative areas believe charity should be done individually like through private donations, and Mississippi, Alabama, and West Virginia are among the most generous states in the country, while New England is the least generous region, with New Hampshire and Vermont among the MOST stingy states when it comes to donations. I think up their its this mentality where its the government's job to run everything and solve all the problems so private charity isn't necessary. In terms of % of personal income donated to charity, the Northeast is an extremely stingy region.
Ever seen a map of election results? Red States? Blue States? No regional correlation? Of course political affiliation in this country plays deeply into a discussion of regional attributes and differences, particularly if that discussion is focusing on individualism and self-determination. To suggest otherwise is naive.
The issue is that you explicitly put political ideology into it, especially by bringing up the current administration. But hey, the mods made the call and now this thread is in a forum where you can knock yourself out doing that. And for that, I'm glad; I hate it when people bring that crap into the general U.S. and city v city forums.
Again, I think you're playing into the same sort of broadbrushed assumptions that the other guy was making.
What I bolded in your post is exactly why I feel they are so different culturally than the rest of the US.
I guess you conveniently skipped over the part where he/she said that was a number of decades ago. Well, duh; we're basically talking about the Civil Rights era or shortly thereafter. I'm a Black native South Carolinian in my mid-30's and have never, ever seen such a billboard like that in the state growing up there.
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