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Old 12-10-2013, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,817,556 times
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South African TV is live streaming:


A tribute to Nelson Mandela: SABC TV live coverage - YouTube
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
7,194 posts, read 4,337,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Conservatives always really hate it when black people anywhere fight for the right to be treated fairly. gretsky66 was rooting for the apartheid team.

It isn't even about apartheid. I could care less about apartheid. The problem is that the political left tends to support socialist freedom fighters. And they tend to turn a blind eye to the means that these people use to accomplish their goals.


I always say, the problem with statists is that what drives them is two principles. "Sacrifice the few for the good of the many", and "the end justifies the means".



A perfect example of this is Che Guevara. Statists only see what they want to see in Che. They see what he purported to believe. They refuse to see his actual actions.

They basically deify these freedom fighters. Because they abstractly share the same goals. But they completely ignore reality.



In my view, the country wouldn't have been markedly different without Mandela. The collapse of the apartheid government was not a consequence of Mandela in any significant way. The collapse of apartheid occurred primarily because of foreign governments putting economic pressure on the apartheid government. Through boycotts and disinvestment.

Basically, the apartheid government collapsed because it was broke. Not because of freedom fighters, terrorists, or saboteurs(like Mandela).


Nelson Mandela is not a hero. He did nothing particularly great.
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:40 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
12,900 posts, read 10,241,104 times
Reputation: 11540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
It isn't even about apartheid. I could care less about apartheid. The problem is that the political left tends to support socialist freedom fighters. And they tend to turn a blind eye to the means that these people use to accomplish their goals.


I always say, the problem with statists is that what drives them is two principles. "Sacrifice the few for the good of the many", and "the end justifies the means".



A perfect example of this is Che Guevara. Statists only see what they want to see in Che. They see what he purported to believe. They refuse to see his actual actions.

They basically deify these freedom fighters. Because they abstractly share the same goals. But they completely ignore reality.



In my view, the country wouldn't have been markedly different without Mandela. The collapse of the apartheid government was not a consequence of Mandela in any significant way. The collapse of apartheid occurred primarily because of foreign governments putting economic pressure on the apartheid government. Through boycotts and disinvestment.

Basically, the apartheid government collapsed because it was broke. Not because of freedom fighters, terrorists, or saboteurs(like Mandela).


Nelson Mandela is not a hero. He did nothing particularly great.
Translation: I don't think that someone standing up for the rights of black South Africans when no one else did for generations is particularly great, primarily because I don't care about the rights of black people.
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
7,194 posts, read 4,337,312 times
Reputation: 2647
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Translation: I don't think that someone standing up for the rights of black South Africans when no one else did for generations is particularly great, primarily because I don't care about the rights of black people.

Look, if we want to celebrate standing up for the rights of people. Thats fine. But there are a lot of other people who were far far far more pivotal in overturning apartheid than Mandela. What I don't understand is why in the world does Mandela get all the credit?

He spent almost all of apartheid in prison, doing nothing. While his wife was out saying how great necklacing was.

What he did before he was sent to prison. Never in a million years would have overturned apartheid. He was basically a terrorist. Thus, Mandela ultimately played no real part in changing the government of South Africa. And was simply made a martyr for some greater cause. He was branded a hero by those who were looking to brand someone a martyr.


What many want to argue is that Mandela sacrificed so much, so he should be considered a hero. And while I recognize that Mandela did make sacrifices. The question is, did he sacrifice more than anyone else? And that answer is a resounding "NO". So why in the hell does Mandela get all the credit?

If this was a funeral for Desmond Tutu. You would not hear a peep from me. But its highly unlikely that Desmond Tutu's funeral will garner state visits from 100+ different countries. When in reality, Desmond Tutu did far more to overturn apartheid than Mandela could ever have dreamed of.
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Long Island
29,744 posts, read 12,440,044 times
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If not for Mandela South Africa could have disintegrated into total civil war like some of the other African nations like Zaire. He took office for 1 year and stepped down, he even hired de Clerk as a deputy president. Mandela had no interest in power and was a unifying force in a country that could easily have exploded into bloodshed, he was great man.
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 28,333,873 times
Reputation: 7824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Look, if we want to celebrate standing up for the rights of people. Thats fine. But there are a lot of other people who were far far far more pivotal in overturning apartheid than Mandela. What I don't understand is why in the world does Mandela get all the credit?

He spent almost all of apartheid in prison, doing nothing. While his wife was out saying how great necklacing was.

What he did before he was sent to prison. Never in a million years would have overturned apartheid. He was basically a terrorist. Thus, Mandela ultimately played no real part in changing the government of South Africa. And was simply made a martyr for some greater cause. He was branded a hero by those who were looking to brand someone a martyr.


What many want to argue is that Mandela sacrificed so much, so he should be considered a hero. And while I recognize that Mandela did make sacrifices. The question is, did he sacrifice more than anyone else? And that answer is a resounding "NO". So why in the hell does Mandela get all the credit?

If this was a funeral for Desmond Tutu. You would not hear a peep from me. But its highly unlikely that Desmond Tutu's funeral will garner state visits from 100+ different countries. When in reality, Desmond Tutu did far more to overturn apartheid than Mandela could ever have dreamed of.
So you like Desmond Tutu but not Nelson Mandela. We get it. And I have pointed out, people can like both of those men, we don't have to choose when it comes to who we remember that fought for freedom.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Long Island
29,744 posts, read 12,440,044 times
Reputation: 6160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Look, if we want to celebrate standing up for the rights of people. Thats fine. But there are a lot of other people who were far far far more pivotal in overturning apartheid than Mandela. What I don't understand is why in the world does Mandela get all the credit?

He spent almost all of apartheid in prison, doing nothing. While his wife was out saying how great necklacing was.

What he did before he was sent to prison. Never in a million years would have overturned apartheid. He was basically a terrorist. Thus, Mandela ultimately played no real part in changing the government of South Africa. And was simply made a martyr for some greater cause. He was branded a hero by those who were looking to brand someone a martyr.


What many want to argue is that Mandela sacrificed so much, so he should be considered a hero. And while I recognize that Mandela did make sacrifices. The question is, did he sacrifice more than anyone else? And that answer is a resounding "NO". So why in the hell does Mandela get all the credit?

If this was a funeral for Desmond Tutu. You would not hear a peep from me. But its highly unlikely that Desmond Tutu's funeral will garner state visits from 100+ different countries. When in reality, Desmond Tutu did far more to overturn apartheid than Mandela could ever have dreamed of.
He spent most of his time in prison doing nothing, he spent 27 years in prison and they murdered his son, he could have easily been vindictive but he chose the path for the better of his nation. He was not a terrorist anymore than the minute men where terrorists, he was fighting against an unjust government.

Yes he gave up 27 years of his life, what was Desmond Tutu's sacrifice that you put him in the same category.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:00 PM
 
1,179 posts, read 1,251,756 times
Reputation: 821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Che will be a hero to some forever. Same with Mandela.
Same with Hitler, Same with Stalin, Same with Ho Ch Minh.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,164,767 times
Reputation: 8879
Well, I look at this way. He was the father of his country. Unlike George Washington, Mandela was able to achieve a complete revolution in the power structure of his nation WITHOUT a war. Does that make him greater than Washington? I think it does!!!
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Old 12-11-2013, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Ohio
18,105 posts, read 13,294,380 times
Reputation: 13949
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretsky99 View Post
The media is trying to make Mandela into some kind of black mother teresa.
I hear you. Even NPR was talking about the "revisionist history" on Mandela the Machete Murderer.

Everyone forgets that apartheid was instituted to separate the Coloreds (Africa-Indians...as in Indians from India) and from the Zulu (a Bantu tribe that migrated from Central sub-Saharan Africa to the southern Africa circa 4,000 BCE, and the Xhosa (who speak a click-language and originated in southern Africa).

As soon as Mandela gained power, the Xhosa went on rampages in Zulu villages hacking people to death, 'cause, you know, it's cool...Mandela said so.

Historically...

Mircea
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