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Old 12-28-2013, 01:21 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,169,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Apparently there are people that still believe that trickle down economics has been a success. I for one do not see it.

The theory that trickle down economics has led to a increasing wealth inequality, increasingly less class mobility, and appears to me to have been a major driver of our deficit.

Who can honestly say they've been a success?

if you want more jobs in the USA and to have more companies put their factories in the USA. the 2 things to do is to tax all companies that have their factories outside of the USA and to put the corporate tax at zero percent.
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Old 12-28-2013, 02:34 AM
 
351 posts, read 369,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
if you want more jobs in the USA and to have more companies put their factories in the USA. the 2 things to do is to tax all companies that have their factories outside of the USA and to put the corporate tax at zero percent.

is not that simple. if you tax to death all companies that have business outside of the U.S. then that will raise prices for the consumer since we live in a GLOBAL economy. You don't solve this problem by taxing everything to death. Isn't that what the FREE MARKET is all about, being free to trade and do business with our allies around the world? the government shouldn't manipulate or punish Americans for doing business in this global economy.


If you raise taxes for Americans doing business outside than other countries will do the same for foreign investing in the U.S.
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:03 AM
 
41,111 posts, read 25,666,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush99 View Post
is not that simple. if you tax to death all companies that have business outside of the U.S. then that will raise prices for the consumer since we live in a GLOBAL economy. You don't solve this problem by taxing everything to death. Isn't that what the FREE MARKET is all about, being free to trade and do business with our allies around the world? the government shouldn't manipulate or punish Americans for doing business in this global economy.


If you raise taxes for Americans doing business outside than other countries will do the same for foreign investing in the U.S.
Hey, liberals and democrats have the answer. Tax every company that stays in the U.S. to death. That will make them want to stay.
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:22 AM
 
34,274 posts, read 19,312,630 times
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OK, so in the past, when we had much higher tax rates on the wealthy, why was our economy so strong?

Why is it that now that we have the tax rate on the wealthiest at its lowest do we have...a horrible economy, and a massive deficit?

Why in the past (pre 1970) did we have a trickle down...that worked? Seriously before 1970 when the wealth of the nation rose, so did everyones income. A 100% increase in GDP lifted every quintile between 90-105%. In the last 40 years however this statistic has changed. The lower 20% is slightly WORSE off, while the vast majority of the benefits of our increased production has gone to the wealthy few.

All of this is pretty easy to research, but instead I hear "it just works, its soooo awesome". Really?

The 2nd great depression of our nation was awesome? Our rising deficit-a LARGE portion of which was caused by unpaid for wars, and tax cuts for the wealthy.....is a good thing? REALLY?
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:29 AM
 
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liberals forget we live in a Global economy. Taxing to death Americans doing business outside only hurts the consumer (all of us). The consumer always pay for the taxes on all goods and service in many ways.

is not the government's right under the constitution to use the tax system to manipulate where somebody does business in a global economy. That's like the government saying "if you don't open your business where and how I tell you I will punish you with higher taxes and destroy you"
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:32 AM
 
351 posts, read 369,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
OK, so in the past, when we had much higher tax rates on the wealthy, why was our economy so strong?

Why is it that now that we have the tax rate on the wealthiest at its lowest do we have...a horrible economy, and a massive deficit?

Why in the past (pre 1970) did we have a trickle down...that worked? Seriously before 1970 when the wealth of the nation rose, so did everyones income. A 100% increase in GDP lifted every quintile between 90-105%. In the last 40 years however this statistic has changed. The lower 20% is slightly WORSE off, while the vast majority of the benefits of our increased production has gone to the wealthy few.

All of this is pretty easy to research, but instead I hear "it just works, its soooo awesome". Really?

The 2nd great depression of our nation was awesome? Our rising deficit-a LARGE portion of which was caused by unpaid for wars, and tax cuts for the wealthy.....is a good thing? REALLY?



liberal propaganda, before we had higher tax rates but loopholes and tax credits. Nobody payed 90% of their income that is a liberal lie.
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:40 AM
 
34,274 posts, read 19,312,630 times
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Tariffs are often considered a better method then taxation to stop foriegn companies from taking over your local market. That being said they also often result in a tit for tat trade war. The taxation of companies is extremely low in the US, in fact MANY companies have found ways to pay little or no taxes.

This is a problem, in order to function a government needs income. So far everyone here keeps screaming "taxes bad!" "Deficits BAD!" not apparently realizing that there is a link between the two. Our spending as a % of our GDP is extremely low at the moment as well...weird...they just seem to ignore that.

Sigh.

So "trickle down is great"
Since 1970 we have seen the gini coefficient go from .394 to .477.

We have seen:
the the quintiles go from:
19,462 to 20,599. basically not a huge jump in income
37,282 to 39,764. Again a very small jump in income
54,226 to 64,582. meh. better but not great
77,366 to 104,096. pretty reasonable-blows the last quintile away
122,294 to 191,156....what the... whoa.

thats our trickle down for you...it doesnt. the incomes staying right at the top. And this is INCOME. the wealth situation...well...holy moly. Thats where this screams out how bad this is. For the majority of Americans the trickle down economics is NOT working.

show me how it is. Show me how trickle down is working, you can check my numbers here:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/incom...H01AR_2012.xls

My data is from the census. Where is your data to back this up? Or is it all just platitudes and assumptions?
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:42 AM
 
34,274 posts, read 19,312,630 times
Reputation: 17256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush99 View Post
liberal propaganda, before we had higher tax rates but loopholes and tax credits. Nobody payed 90% of their income that is a liberal lie.
Nope they didn't...but guess what.. They used loopholes just as effectively as they do today. Their effective tax rate was DOUBLE what it is today for the richest.

Its like you ignore that fact completely. Most of us use the REAL numbers the rich pay today, not the 35% or 39%...its about 22-23 %. Thats their effective tax rate today, back then their effective was DOUBLE.

PS-BTW...notice I didnt bring this up-you did. but you should research what the top 5% paid in effective taxes then, and get back to me.

Last edited by greywar; 12-28-2013 at 03:44 AM.. Reason: PS added
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Old 12-28-2013, 04:01 AM
 
351 posts, read 369,489 times
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The federal corporate income tax was first instituted in 1909 when income above $5,000 was subjected to a one percent tax rate. Since then it has changed approximately 35 times, with the current top rate at 35 percent. Additionally, many states levy corporate income taxes of their own. Economists have long understood that corporate income taxes are double taxes, since the same income is taxed once as profit, and once as individual income when distributed as dividends to shareholders. Contrary to popular misconception, the ultimate burden of corporate income taxes doesn't fall on corporations, but is instead borne by workers, shareholders and consumers.


my source for corporate tax rate history is the Tax Foundation, what is yours?
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Old 12-28-2013, 04:15 AM
 
351 posts, read 369,489 times
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Principles of Sound Tax Policy



Simplicity
: Administrative costs are a loss to society, and complicated taxation undermines voluntary compliance by creating incentives to shelter and disguise income.

Transparency: Tax legislation should be based on sound legislative procedures and careful analysis. A good tax system requires informed taxpayers who understand how tax assessment, collection, and compliance works. There should be open hearings and revenue estimates should be fully explained and replicable.

Neutrality: The fewer economic decisions that are made for tax reasons, the better. The primary purpose of taxes is to raise needed revenue, not to micromanage the economy. The tax system should not favor certain industries, activities, or products.

Stability: When tax laws are in constant flux, long-range financial planning is difficult. Lawmakers should avoid enacting temporary tax laws, including tax holidays and amnesties.

No Retroactivity: As a corollary to the principle of stability, taxpayers should rely with confidence on the law as it exists when contracts are signed and transactions made.

Broad Bases and Low Rates: As a corollary to the principle of neutrality, lawmakers should avoid enacting targeted deductions, credits and exclusions. If such tax preferences are few, substantial revenue can be raised with low tax rates. Broad-based taxes can also produce relatively stable tax revenues from year to year.


Put simply, good tax policy promotes economic growth by focusing on raising revenue in the least distortive manner possible.
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