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Old 12-31-2013, 05:24 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,773 posts, read 21,486,569 times
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What's kind of health care system does Mircea support?
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,807 posts, read 4,273,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
What do you think would happen if we did away with health insurance as we currently know it? Would costs go down? How would the industry adjust? Any ideas on how to make it work without the insurance industry? Just curious as to people's thoughts on this and to see ideas on how to make things better.
I'd have more money in my pocket and the leeches of society would be forced to find a different way to save themselves, besides tax me.
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Old 12-31-2013, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,152,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easternerDC View Post
Interesting information on the timeline of health coverage/health insurance:
PBS- Healthcare Crisis: Healthcare Timeline
Wow, what a great piece of propaganda.

Consistent with the general mood of political complacency, there is no strong effort to change health insurance.

There is no health insurance.

"[T]he opportunities for fraud upset all statistical calculations.... Health and sickness are vague terms open to endless construction. Death is clearly defined, but to say what shall constitute such loss of health as will justify insurance compensation is no easy task" (July 1919, vol. 67 (7), p. 38).

You can read that in the Insurance Monitor. I've posted links to it before, but forgive me if I'm too damn lazy to look it up now.

Anyway, PBS is loathe to do any research, and what, uh, you know, "research" PBS does is basically raiding Pukipedia....your tax dollars at work.

Two other propaganda lies here...

Reformers now emphasize the cost of medical care instead of wages lost to sickness - the relatively higher cost of medical care is a new and dramatic development, especially for the middle class.

General Motors signs a contract with Metropolitan Life to insure 180,000 workers.


Prior to the start of the Great Depression in 1925, you had serious Real Inflation in the post-WW I Era. That Real Inflation was running about 15%-25% annually. It was followed by Real Deflation and that, combined with mounting job losses caused by Electro-Mechanical Industrialization caused the 1925 Recession and collapse of the housing bubble (created by post-WW I Real Inflation).

Hospitals are losing money, and how can hospitals increase their revenues?

Pre-paid hospitalization plans.

The first plan was introduced in 1926, by whom is disputed, although there are three candidates, General Motors is not one of them.

The best documented plan is that introduced by Baylor University Hospital in 1929. It was made available to all public school teachers in Dallas County (Texas) and it was $6 for 21 days of hospitalization. It is the best documented plan due to the fact that Baylor University still exists, while the other hospitals closed their doors decades ago.

I have to laugh at the General Motors thing. They probably paid for a nice plug. It was not uncommon for some life insurance policies to cover stays in sanitariums....for tuberculosis not mental disease, which hardly rises to the level of "health insurance."

Against the advice of insurance professionals, Blue Cross begins offering private coverage for hospital care in dozens of states.

That is a complete lie.

In 1933, the American Hospital Association formed a committee to begin studying these pre-paid hospitalization plans that started popping up to increase the revenues for hospitals....uh, which is not the same thing as providing healthcare.

The American Hospital Association then started to dictate to its member-hospitals the minimum services to be offered, and the prices for those services.

The second that happened, Free Market healthcare in America died.

As these plans grow over time, in 1939, the American Hospital Association groups its member-hospitals together and then stifles Free Market competition by attempting to drive non-member hospitals out of business.

How? This is when the American Hospital Association introduces the "Out-of-Network" clause.

So long as you OBEY and use a hospital that is a member of the American Hospital Association, you're fine, but if you go to a hospital that is not a member of the American Hospital Association, then they refuse to pay your medical bills.

Now, State insurance commissions and regulators start looking real hard at these pre-paid hospitalization plans, since they are effective "insurance." At this point, the American Hospital Association starts lobbying the several State legislatures to get exemptions and to be exempted from all insurance regulations, including the auditing of their books.

Having been successful in 37 States, the American Hospital Association incorporates the Blue Cross in 1946 and it is the first health insurance company.

That is a matter of public record, so you have to seriously question the credibility of PBS when they claim the Blue Cross started in the 1930s.

I'll show you another place were PBS loses all credibility.

In 1940, the cost of these pre-paid hospitalization plans were 0.40% of the disposable income for a US household. Contrast that with the false claims of PBS here...

...the relatively higher cost of medical care is a new and dramatic development, especially for the middle class.

By 1950, the cost of health insurance was 0.92% of the disposable income for a US household....more than double.

What happened?

Technology.

The FDA approves field trials for penicillin in 1942, and that is accomplished on the battlefields of WW II, and then it is approved for public use in 1946. I believe it was the same year that streptomycin was in clinical testing. That brings us to this...

1] Technology up to 65%
2] Consumer Demand up to 36%


Source: United States Government General Accounting Office GAO-13-281 PPACA and the Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, January 2013 pp 31-36

Better healthcare through technology such as pharmaceuticals, plus higher wages for Americans in the post-WW II Era creates greater demand for healthcare, which drives up the cost of healthcare.


The last major issue is this....

Corporations begin to integrate the hospital system (previously a decentralized structure),....

The hospital system was not "previously a decentralized structure."

The US hospital system was under the centralized control of the American Hospital Association since 1933, when it killed Free Market healthcare in the US.

I mean the mere existence of the "Out-of-Network" clause created by the American Hospital Association in 1939 to drive non-member hospitals out of business....just like a monopoly....which was then incorporated into the Blue Cross scheme in 1946 is evidence of centralized control.


... enter many other healthcare-related businesses, and consolidate control. Overall, there is a shift toward privatization and corporatization of healthcare.
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I would not disagree with that, but it is disingenuous to ignore the fact that the American Hospital Association is pulling the chains, not "corporate America" and most certainly not the "health insurance" companies.

Regarding centralized control, I'll leave you with this gem so I can go party...

"Introduced by various House and Senate sponsors and subject to extensive hearings, the basic framework of part A began to reflect accommodations between the sponsors, the Administration and the American Hospital Association (AHA).

It ranged all the way from principles of institutional reimbursement, which has been pretty thoroughly already worked out in a general way for their own purposes between Blue Cross and the Hospital Association over a period of several years

The American Hospital Association has already nominated the Blue Cross organization for its membership, although some member hospitals will undoubtedly elect out of this arrangement. We have proceeded very far in the development of working arrangements with Blue Cross, although no formal approval as a fiscal intermediary has yet been given them."

Source: Report to Social Security Administration Staff on the Implementation of the Social Security Amendments of 1965, Robert M. Ball Commissioner, November 15, 1965

Yes, that's right....guess who wrote nearly all of Obamacare?

Bottoms up...

Mircea
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Old 12-31-2013, 06:25 PM
 
18,804 posts, read 8,462,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Costs would fall dramatically. Dealing with insurance issues takes more than half of quite a few doctors' time and/or costs. ObamaCare will make this far worse.
My medical practice costs of dealing with insurance is minimal. Ten docs and I share a few billers. I have little to do with it or spend any time with it. The new EMR's do a lot of the work. And Obamacare changes very little here. Except the oncoming ICD-10 coding. That could be a real biggie of a headache, but too many unknowns just yet.
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Old 12-31-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,152,432 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
What's kind of health care system does Mircea support?
Free Market.

Buying health insurance should be no different than buying auto or home insurance.

Why can't you buy $150,000 or $400,000 or $750,000 worth of health insurance per year and use it as use see fit?

I can put my sister and my nephews on my auto insurance...no problem.....why can't I put them on my health insurance?

I can put my freaking neighbor on my auto insurance....why can't I put a room-mate or my neighbor on my health insurance?

I can pick my deductible for home, auto, boat, casualty, fire, E&O and everything else, except "health insurance"...why?

Why can't I get my own insurance and have my employer pay all or part of it?

Why is there an "Out-of-Network" clause? Are you forced to pay extra for using a roofing contractor that is "Out-of-Network" on your home-owner's insurance?

I can get an estimate for insurance on my home, boat or car, but not for healthcare?

Why is my doctor forced against his will to use only certain hospitals?

How bizarre is it that those who scream the loudest about Freedom of Choice don't want you to have any choice at all when it comes to healthcare?

Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a bottle of Grey Goose with my name on it.

Ironically...

Mircea
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:01 PM
 
2,672 posts, read 2,716,771 times
Reputation: 1041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Free Market.

Buying health insurance should be no different than buying auto or home insurance.

Why can't you buy $150,000 or $400,000 or $750,000 worth of health insurance per year and use it as use see fit?

I can put my sister and my nephews on my auto insurance...no problem.....why can't I put them on my health insurance?

I can put my freaking neighbor on my auto insurance....why can't I put a room-mate or my neighbor on my health insurance?

I can pick my deductible for home, auto, boat, casualty, fire, E&O and everything else, except "health insurance"...why?

Why can't I get my own insurance and have my employer pay all or part of it?

Why is there an "Out-of-Network" clause? Are you forced to pay extra for using a roofing contractor that is "Out-of-Network" on your home-owner's insurance?

I can get an estimate for insurance on my home, boat or car, but not for healthcare?

Why is my doctor forced against his will to use only certain hospitals?

How bizarre is it that those who scream the loudest about Freedom of Choice don't want you to have any choice at all when it comes to healthcare?

Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a bottle of Grey Goose with my name on it.

Ironically...

Mircea
I like your post but even before the ACA some states were abolishing the ACA. Then the ACA came along and the uninsured and high risk people came in. Policies went up 40% for those outside of group policies. How do you unwind that and insure the uninsurable? Ok you kick some to the curb and make them suffer but what about the rest? Meanwhile some people arent even impacted by the high cost of health care. I am on a policy thats almost a cadillac plan that is cheaper than most people think. Its less than it was two years ago.
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:02 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,288 posts, read 87,384,526 times
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pretty much 1929 stuff, you get sick, you die.
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:33 AM
 
8,629 posts, read 9,130,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borregokid View Post
I like your post but even before the ACA some states were abolishing the ACA. Then the ACA came along and the uninsured and high risk people came in. Policies went up 40% for those outside of group policies. How do you unwind that and insure the uninsurable? Ok you kick some to the curb and make them suffer but what about the rest? Meanwhile some people arent even impacted by the high cost of health care. I am on a policy thats almost a cadillac plan that is cheaper than most people think. Its less than it was two years ago.
Actually that was the best post from Mircea I've read. Not one cut and paste!
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
25,826 posts, read 20,692,117 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
What are the costs of other high demand items that are not insured?

There is no food insurance, but we all need food to live. How are food prices?

There is no water insurance, but we all need water to live. How are water prices?

We have car insurance for collision and liability, but we don't have insurance for gasoline, routine maintenance/repairs, and upkeep. How are those costs?

I do have homeowners insurance for catastrophic stuff, but not for new flooring, roofing, and other general homeowner costs. How are those kind of costs?

Prior to WW II, health insurance, for people who even had it, was for catastrophic costs and high risk occupations. Most people paid for medical services like they paid for electricity. You got the service, the doc gave/sent you a bill, you paid the bill. Hospitals worked the same way. You stayed, they took care of you, you got a bill with everything listed on it, and you paid it.

The post WW II anti-competition laws were what got employers into the health insurance as benefit business. It has done nothing but jack prices up ever since.
You yourself noted that some, if not all, of those costs are controllable. You choose the level of car, homeowners, etc. insurance you want to pay for.
Can you say the same for prescription costs if you have a chronic condition that requires daily meds?
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