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Old 01-22-2014, 12:26 PM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,419 posts, read 20,295,184 times
Reputation: 8958

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Im sure the article will be full of facts, not suppositions right? And it will...oh...no...no it won't.

A opinion hit piece, that could have been much more with a bit of effort by the author. Yawn.
What is not factual are the figure the administration puts out. This figure is the number of people who are unemployed, who should be employed, are able to work, not of retirement age, yet cannot find work. It is a very real figure.

Over 9 million jobs have disappeared under Obama. They are gone. They are not coming back. No new jobs have been created (contrary to what Obama tells us).
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:05 PM
 
34,278 posts, read 19,358,607 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy View Post
What is not factual are the figure the administration puts out. This figure is the number of people who are unemployed, who should be employed, are able to work, not of retirement age, yet cannot find work. It is a very real figure.

Over 9 million jobs have disappeared under Obama. They are gone. They are not coming back. No new jobs have been created (contrary to what Obama tells us).
Sigh. Quite drinking the foolaid.

the facts and figures are calculated the same way as they always have. The administration isnt lying about them. Now statistics CAN mislead you, and the unemployment # is misleading. But hey-if you're saying its higher, why are so many on the right against extending unemployment then? LOL. They say "because we're better now".

Look you want jobs? You know what makes jobs? Demand....you want to increase demand? Reduce inequality. Raise minimum wage, etc etc.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:46 PM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,419 posts, read 20,295,184 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Look you want jobs? You know what makes jobs? Demand....you want to increase demand? Reduce inequality. Raise minimum wage, etc etc.
Who's drinking "foolaid?"

You know all the clichés, don't you?

"Demand" doesn't create jobs. Entrepreneurs do. But they aren't going to take the risks in a very poor economy such as we have had for the last five years. And, demand is meaningless if nobody has money to spend.

Raising the minimum wage is not going to increase demand either. That is a phony argument. Again, you're drinking the Kool Aid. In the first place, the numbers of people that would be affected by an increase in the minimum wage would be too minscule to cause any significant increase in demand for any product. And that assumes that one would run right out and spend that extra cash.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:49 PM
 
34,278 posts, read 19,358,607 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy View Post
Who's drinking "foolaid?"

You know all the clichés, don't you?

"Demand" doesn't create jobs. Entrepreneurs do. But they aren't going to take the risks in a very poor economy such as we have had for the last five years. And, demand is meaningless if nobody has money to spend.

Raising the minimum wage is not going to increase demand either. That is a phony argument. Again, you're drinking the Kool Aid. In the first place, the numbers of people that would be affected by an increase in the minimum wage would be too minscule to cause any significant increase in demand for any product. And that assumes that one would run right out and spend that extra cash.
Shrug, I've been having so many of them thrown towards me I figured hey why not. Probably shouldnt so...I suppose I apologize for that. I did think the foolaid was a nice varient....but again I shouldn't. I'm feeling grumpy.

Sorry, but Entrepreneurs need demand-customers with money, or theres no point. You kind of make the point when you say they wont take risks in a very poor economy. And demand is created by people having money-ie making more then minimum wage.

And no this isnt a phoney argument, there has been actual research on this. And yes-those people DO in fact run out and spend that extra cash. They do things like get new tires for their car so its safer, buy warmer clothing, eat out some, go to a movie, buy healthier food, and much more.

This really is basic economics.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Alameda, CA
7,605 posts, read 4,842,742 times
Reputation: 1438
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy View Post
What is not factual are the figure the administration puts out. This figure is the number of people who are unemployed, who should be employed, are able to work, not of retirement age, yet cannot find work. It is a very real figure.

Over 9 million jobs have disappeared under Obama. They are gone. They are not coming back. No new jobs have been created (contrary to what Obama tells us).
No its not. You should read the article.

Should We Wallow in the Rising Stock Market?

Unemployment in its truest definition, meaning the portion of people who do not have any job, is 37.2%. This number obviously includes some people who are not or never plan to seek employment.

This calculation will include retired people and is based on "the figure the administration puts out."
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:06 PM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,419 posts, read 20,295,184 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Shrug, I've been having so many of them thrown towards me I figured hey why not. Probably shouldnt so...I suppose I apologize for that. I did think the foolaid was a nice varient....but again I shouldn't. I'm feeling grumpy.

Sorry, but Entrepreneurs need demand-customers with money, or theres no point. You kind of make the point when you say they wont take risks in a very poor economy. And demand is created by people having money-ie making more then minimum wage.

And no this isnt a phoney argument, there has been actual research on this. And yes-those people DO in fact run out and spend that extra cash. They do things like get new tires for their car so its safer, buy warmer clothing, eat out some, go to a movie, buy healthier food, and much more.

This really is basic economics.
Actually, the "foolaid" was a nice variant; it was quite clever.

But, to address your comments: I thought you had the cart before the horse. Demand comes (one hopes) after the product is introduced, not before. Part of the risk of entrepreneurship is the risk of not knowing if the product will sell. Someone who does the required research may have good reason to believe there will be a demand, but there is no guarantee till the product is on the market.

The market (us - in the case of the consumer market) doesn't necessarily know what it needs or wants. But when a new product is introduced, if it is marketed well, it may take off. Or, it may be a total flop.

Okay, so even if people do run out and spend that extra cash, there aren't sufficient numbers of them to cause any measurable increase in demand for any one product. I doubt the total increase in consumer spending would be measurable. I think it's all speculation and wishful thinking, and it's propaganda to get people behind the idea of raising the minimum wage. Sounds good. But probably zero impact on the economy. And, I still think it would have a net negative effect on jobs, because a lot of jobs would just be eliminated.
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:11 PM
 
41,110 posts, read 25,719,480 times
Reputation: 13868
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Sigh. Quite drinking the foolaid.

the facts and figures are calculated the same way as they always have. The administration isnt lying about them. Now statistics CAN mislead you, and the unemployment # is misleading. But hey-if you're saying its higher, why are so many on the right against extending unemployment then? LOL. They say "because we're better now".

Look you want jobs? You know what makes jobs? Demand....you want to increase demand? Reduce inequality. Raise minimum wage, etc etc.
Well we are doing it your way and it's not looking so good.
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:14 PM
 
79,913 posts, read 44,167,332 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
In 1939, unemployment reached 17.2% and shanytowns such as this one were a common site across the country:



If today's unemployment was really at 37.2%, how come we don't have any pics of shanty towns today?


No, these are not boy scouts.
Attached Thumbnails
Actual unemployment is 37.2%, 'misery index' worst in 40 years-019-1280x848-.jpg  
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:17 PM
 
34,278 posts, read 19,358,607 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
Well we are doing it your way and it's not looking so good.
No we're not actually. I wish we were, but we're actually stuck without progress at all.
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:22 PM
 
34,278 posts, read 19,358,607 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy View Post
Actually, the "foolaid" was a nice variant; it was quite clever.

But, to address your comments: I thought you had the cart before the horse. Demand comes (one hopes) after the product is introduced, not before. Part of the risk of entrepreneurship is the risk of not knowing if the product will sell. Someone who does the required research may have good reason to believe there will be a demand, but there is no guarantee till the product is on the market.

The market (us - in the case of the consumer market) doesn't necessarily know what it needs or wants. But when a new product is introduced, if it is marketed well, it may take off. Or, it may be a total flop.

Okay, so even if people do run out and spend that extra cash, there aren't sufficient numbers of them to cause any measurable increase in demand for any one product. I doubt the total increase in consumer spending would be measurable. I think it's all speculation and wishful thinking, and it's propaganda to get people behind the idea of raising the minimum wage. Sounds good. But probably zero impact on the economy. And, I still think it would have a net negative effect on jobs, because a lot of jobs would just be eliminated.
You make a product because there will be demand for it. Seriously.

I've cancelled projects for great products that wouldn't have enough demand for them. Let me give you an example:

We have a new widget that makes reflow ovens more efficient. Theres 20K of these out in the world. 10% would buy it, giving us a net demand of 2,000 units. Not enough. We toss the idea and go on.

Now...demand ramps up for things, theres 20K reflow ovens, but another 10K are being sold now....suddenly its a good idea.

Demand drives sales, which drives profits. Demand matters. I'm not putting the cart before the horse.

It doesnt matter if we make a product at all if theres not enough money out there to buy it at a profitable rate.
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