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Old 02-22-2014, 10:00 PM
 
Location: The better side of the Mason-Dixon Line
4,640 posts, read 7,144,646 times
Reputation: 2192
The problem with Ukraine is that they have a large number of ethnic Russians colonists and their descendents who settled in Ukraine during the Soviet years. These people still consider themselves Russians, not Ukrainians, and are not loyal to Ukraine and have Russia's best interest in mind vs Ukraine's. (like how most Mexican Americans do not consider themselves American and cheer for Mexico in the Olympics and support policies like illegal immigration that benefit Mexico at the expense of the US). The Russian colonists in Ukraine should recognize that Ukraine is an independent country now, and that if they cannot be loyal to the country then they should leave it and go back to Russia. The people who support Viktor Yanukovych are not ethnic Ukrainians and are not loyal to Ukraine,they are like a Russian 5th column living there.

Instead of splitting Ukraine in two, I think the ethnic Russians should be forced to leave the country unless they can prove their loyalty and take a oath of loyalty, and take a literacy test in the Ukrainian language the way everyone in the US should be expected to learn English. If the ethnic Russians are not loyal to Ukraine and do not speak Ukrainian and assimilate into their new country then they should be deported. Remember that Ukraine was never part of Russia, it was invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union during WOrld War II when the Nazis were pushed back to Germany. The Soviet army just never left and incorporated Ukraine into the Soviet Union. The Russians there are basically colonists and squatters on someone else's land. Yes there is a small minority of Russian colonists who settled there earlier but that is still as recent as the 1700s while the Ukrainian people have been on their land since the beginning.
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Old 02-22-2014, 10:09 PM
 
8,644 posts, read 2,799,070 times
Reputation: 1899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
The problem with Ukraine is that they have a large number of ethnic Russians colonists and their descendents who settled in Ukraine during the Soviet years. These people still consider themselves Russians, not Ukrainians, and are not loyal to Ukraine and have Russia's best interest in mind vs Ukraine's. (like how most Mexican Americans do not consider themselves American and cheer for Mexico in the Olympics and support policies like illegal immigration that benefit Mexico at the expense of the US). The Russian colonists in Ukraine should recognize that Ukraine is an independent country now, and that if they cannot be loyal to the country then they should leave it and go back to Russia. The people who support Viktor Yanukovych are not ethnic Ukrainians and are not loyal to Ukraine,they are like a Russian 5th column living there.

Instead of splitting Ukraine in two, I think the ethnic Russians should be forced to leave the country unless they can prove their loyalty and take a oath of loyalty, and take a literacy test in the Ukrainian language the way everyone in the US should be expected to learn English. If the ethnic Russians are not loyal to Ukraine and do not speak Ukrainian and assimilate into their new country then they should be deported. Remember that Ukraine was never part of Russia, it was invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union during WOrld War II when the Nazis were pushed back to Germany. The Soviet army just never left and incorporated Ukraine into the Soviet Union. The Russians there are basically colonists and squatters on someone else's land. Yes there is a small minority of Russian colonists who settled there earlier but that is still as recent as the 1700s while the Ukrainian people have been on their land since the beginning.
Agreed tho those "Russians" who WANT to become "Ukrainian" should be left alone, kinda like our "Hispanic" people who drop Spanish for English.
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:55 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,679 posts, read 12,051,973 times
Reputation: 4328
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
I can't believe that Jews are still hanging around the Ukraine.

They're probably the biggest murderer of Jews during the Holocaust (after the Germans and Austrians of course).
Yes, fascism is alive and well in western Ukraine
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,679 posts, read 12,051,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickerman View Post
If the Ukrainians hate us it is because we sided with the Soviet Union in WW2 which put them under the Soviet dictatorship for 45 more years that it would have been if we hadn't sided with them.
Actually Ukraine was under USSR even before WWII.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:16 AM
 
Location: texas
9,144 posts, read 2,858,165 times
Reputation: 2339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
The problem with Ukraine is that they have a large number of ethnic Russians colonists and their descendents who settled in Ukraine during the Soviet years. These people still consider themselves Russians, not Ukrainians, and are not loyal to Ukraine and have Russia's best interest in mind vs Ukraine's. (like how most Mexican Americans do not consider themselves American and cheer for Mexico in the Olympics and support policies like illegal immigration that benefit Mexico at the expense of the US). The Russian colonists in Ukraine should recognize that Ukraine is an independent country now, and that if they cannot be loyal to the country then they should leave it and go back to Russia. The people who support Viktor Yanukovych are not ethnic Ukrainians and are not loyal to Ukraine,they are like a Russian 5th column living there.

That is rubbish. If anyone cheers on team Mexico, that in no way means they want Mexico to take over the politics of the USA.

Horrible analogy.

If anyone comes to America to settle, they are not Mexican-Americans. They are either Mexican or American until they naturalize. Mexican-Americans are Americans by birth with a historical tie to Mexico.

please learn the correct terminalogy before disparaging.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,679 posts, read 12,051,973 times
Reputation: 4328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
The problem with Ukraine is that they have a large number of ethnic Russians colonists and their descendents who settled in Ukraine during the Soviet years. These people still consider themselves Russians, not Ukrainians, and are not loyal to Ukraine and have Russia's best interest in mind vs Ukraine's. (like how most Mexican Americans do not consider themselves American and cheer for Mexico in the Olympics and support policies like illegal immigration that benefit Mexico at the expense of the US). The Russian colonists in Ukraine should recognize that Ukraine is an independent country now, and that if they cannot be loyal to the country then they should leave it and go back to Russia. The people who support Viktor Yanukovych are not ethnic Ukrainians and are not loyal to Ukraine,they are like a Russian 5th column living there.

Instead of splitting Ukraine in two, I think the ethnic Russians should be forced to leave the country unless they can prove their loyalty and take a oath of loyalty, and take a literacy test in the Ukrainian language the way everyone in the US should be expected to learn English. If the ethnic Russians are not loyal to Ukraine and do not speak Ukrainian and assimilate into their new country then they should be deported. Remember that Ukraine was never part of Russia, it was invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union during WOrld War II when the Nazis were pushed back to Germany. The Soviet army just never left and incorporated Ukraine into the Soviet Union. The Russians there are basically colonists and squatters on someone else's land. Yes there is a small minority of Russian colonists who settled there earlier but that is still as recent as the 1700s while the Ukrainian people have been on their land since the beginning.
The issue is not with the Russians, who are not that large in numbers, but the large number of Ukrainians who re simply pro-russia.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:36 AM
 
Location: a nation in decline
10,231 posts, read 10,431,622 times
Reputation: 3885
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Bring it......It's not Americas problem.. If the commies had the control they used to have we wouldn't be sending Americans to die in countless worthless country's around the world...Let the EU marshal their forces and take on the Reds if they march into the Ukraine. If you are so worried about them buy a ticket and go there....
It's sad that Reagan brought down the wall and now we will help the Russians rebuild it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWhopper View Post
My family emigrated to America from the Ukraine after WWII, I still have family over there, so I have a little more investment in this than most. I don't think Putin will put troops on the ground. Ukraine is after all the 4th largest nuclear power on earth. With this current instability, who knows who has the keys to those nukes? This could get ugly very fast. In fact, this couldn't have happened at a worse time for Putin, with the eyes of the world focused on Sochi.
Same with us, except it was the Baltics. I fully agree with you, except that Putin might put troops on the ground and no one will try to stop him. He wants to retake the all the former republics and he may not need troops in this instance. He controls the heat for these people and he can simply shut it off and freeze them out. He wouldn't care if multitudes die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWhopper View Post
Oddly, I agree with you. Our unbiased support of Israel and anti-Arab policies did contribute somewhat to 9/11.
Taking positions based on the path of least resistance is appeasement, and that never works in the long run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
I saw a story yesterday about the billionaires in the Ukraine. There are several and they have, like in the US, considerable clout politically. Some are pro-east, others pro-west, but above all else they are protective of their own interests. They, not Russia, will decide the outcome of this. In any case, it is not our conflict to resolve. This one is on the Euros.
Lots of billionaires in Russia, too. Power and money go together. This is an issue of human rights, but it may be a repetition of the Hungarian student revolt. We will stand by and watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurbie View Post
Careful throwing that "madman" label around. That's how the US gets into avoidable wars.
That's called appeasement or, on another level, "p.c." ... neither works well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Think4Yourself View Post
The reality is the ethnic Ukrainians were a lot like the Baltic states in that they had briefly been independent and the non-Russian populations deeply wanted to become independent again so, yeah, when they saw a chance to help fight for independence they took it even if it meant allying with Nazi Germany.

It doesn't make it right just understandable as a logical course of action especially after the Russian Civil War, the liquidation of the Kulaks, and the history of Stalinist repression. Drowning people will grasp on to a savior even if he's not that nice of a guy.
When you have two ruthless powers, what choice do the people have? The lesser of two evils...

This may be more of an EU problem at the moment, but the EU needs to be supported by the rest of the world. Oppression over there can easily affect us here, if sheer self-interest is the motivation for some. It would be nice to see the US "do the right thing" for a change, not for politics or for re-election or power, the way the Russians operate.

I'd like to be proud of my country once again, but under this administration it's doubtful that will happen in the near term.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:42 AM
 
7,413 posts, read 2,497,185 times
Reputation: 2078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimuelojones View Post
No one is raising troops to go to Kiev. And Americans can give a dam without giving money or blood. It's called support.

Although many on this forum and in our nation hate our President..He still has influence in the World and people actually still consider his words and support as important. I'm sure no one on this forum does, but that is besides the point.
I think our idiot burned those bridges internationally. The world shuddered when he brokered that deal with Iran. Even France said it was a bad idea. It alienated Israel and Saudi Arabia. He ignored the Ukraine's plea for support and continues to ignore it.

I fully expect Putin to fill that vacuum and come spring he will be "invited" to move into the Ukraine.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,679 posts, read 12,051,973 times
Reputation: 4328
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
I think our idiot burned those bridges internationally. The world shuddered when he brokered that deal with Iran. Even France said it was a bad idea. It alienated Israel and Saudi Arabia. He ignored the Ukraine's plea for support and continues to ignore it.

I fully expect Putin to fill that vacuum and come spring he will be "invited" to move into the Ukraine.
One half of Ukraine looks to the west and the other half looks to the east. The one looking west got their support from EU and US, and they seem to be winning. There is no vacuum, because the pro-russians have been in power there for some time now, and looks like the pro-west will be in power going forward.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:52 AM
 
Location: texas
9,144 posts, read 2,858,165 times
Reputation: 2339
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
I think our idiot burned those bridges internationally. The world shuddered when he brokered that deal with Iran. Even France said it was a bad idea. It alienated Israel and Saudi Arabia. He ignored the Ukraine's plea for support and continues to ignore it.

I fully expect Putin to fill that vacuum and come spring he will be "invited" to move into the Ukraine.
I dont know if I would agree with you asessment...being that the first demands of Iran is holding, the Red Line is Syria is holding and Syria has not used any more chemical weapons on it's people.

Im not gonna claim that Obama's stance and words drove the politicians out of Kiev, but the killing of protestors has ceased. That is all that matters.
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