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The American taxpayer continues to subsidize a de facto arm of a racist, anti-Semitic group to the tune of millions of dollars, according to an investigative report released by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today. The Nation of Islam exerts controlling influence over companies which have obtained more than $19 million in contracts, the bulk of it federal money, to provide security and other services for public housing in six states and the District of Columbia, according to Federal Funds for NOI Security: Financing Farrakhan's Ministry of Hate.
Stupid. There should be no white or black courts, there should only be courts.
Michael Dunn was certainly guilty, and he serving like 4 life sentences. George Zimmerman had no evidence that could convince him of anything other than self defense. Not defending him, just pointing out that there wasn't any solid evidence. People who say otherwise didn't look at the facts.
Stupid. There should be no white or black courts, there should only be courts.
Michael Dunn was certainly guilty, and he serving like 4 life sentences. George Zimmerman had no evidence that could convince him of anything other than self defense. Not defending him, just pointing out that there wasn't any solid evidence. People who say otherwise didn't look at the facts.
The secret about Florida's SYG law is also that it has protected a disproportionate amount of black men from going to jail:
One hundred thirty three people in the state of Florida have used a “Stand Your Ground” defense. Of these claims, 73 were considered “justified” (55 percent), while 39 resulted in criminal convictions and 21 cases are still pending.
Forty four African Americans in the state of Florida have claimed a “Stand Your Ground” defense. Of these claims, 24 were considered “justified” (55 percent), while 11 resulted in convictions and nine cases are still pending.
Of the 76 white people who have used the defense, 40 were considered “justified” (less than 53 percent), while 25 were convicted and 11 cases are still pending.
I have also (due to me being nerdy) researched the organization. I do that when I am interested in a particular group/organization and have done so with white organizations and even hate groups as well, most recently the Aryan Brotherhood after I saw a documentary on them. Their group is also very interesting to me, I am fascinated by the human experience.
But in summation - the NOI are racist and homophobic. TriMT7 wanted to say they should focus on "educating black children, to teach them how to be successful and compete in modern America and the world" and to "encourage more black people to open businesses and invest in their communities and country." The NOI do all of those so those comments were ignorant in regards to the NOI.
Like you, I also look at backgrounds and read up on organizations/people our of interest or curiosity.
As you say, the NOI does encourage positive action, but if you want to make an impact, hate will stand in the way and limit one's circle of opportunity. If you do all the right things how can you succeed outside your circle with hate towards the very people that you would have to associate with? I listened to Farrakhan ONCE. I like what he was saying until he went into his racist, anti-Jew rant and his "audience" cheering him on.
Western Muslims don't want anything to do with NOI and believe that Farrakhan and the NOI send the wrong messages - messages filled with hate. There is not difference between the teaching of Islam by Farrakhan and that of Muslim terrorists.
But that doesn't change what I said. They should FOCUS on that, instead of muddling their message with their racism, radicalism, and anti-sexism and homophobia.
Again, white nationalism espouses many of the same things for the advancement of the white community. Doesn't make them "good" because the good is far outweighed by the bad.
Is it possible to focus on education and TRUE uplift without the baggage?
"Nationalism"...when a group is already on top and controlling most of the wealth and resources is something totally different from "Nationalism" for a group that is at the bottom in terms of wealth and socioeconomic. Nationalism, for the "oppressing group", is something totally different from Nationalism from an oppressed group. If the oppressor has a doctrine that another group is "nothing" the out group will either accept it or promote an agenda that they are "Something". When the oppressor pushes.....it creates a "push back".
One of sound mind and character cannot compare the unprovoked actions of an aggressor with that of the victim. In other words, if you are walking down the street and someone comes and attacks you with violence, your response to protect yourself by pushing back with violence does not make you "Just like your attacker". You are defending yourself while the attacker is the morally deprived entity. NOI is a defensive reaction to oppression.
Lets say there is a nation and that nation is attacked and occupied and its original residents subjugated and abused. Does resistance or attempts to counter act the impact of the invasion make the natives just as bad as the invaders?
There is no comparison. White nationalism seeks to ATTACK and preserve/conserve the gains of white oppression and maintain supremacy while black nationalism seeks to PROTECT AND RESTORE (the image autonomy and economics of black people).
TriMT7 seeks to make superficial comparisons, like "two people fighting", hence, no distinction with a difference, while purposely ignoring that one is fighting in SELF DEFENSE while the other is the attacker.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-26-2014 at 09:25 AM..
But that doesn't change what I said. They should FOCUS on that, instead of muddling their message with their racism, radicalism, and anti-sexism and homophobia.
Again, white nationalism espouses many of the same things for the advancement of the white community. Doesn't make them "good" because the good is far outweighed by the bad.
Is it possible to focus on education and TRUE uplift without the baggage?
Those things are their primary focus - self determination, strong families, and education.
The racist portions of their ideologies are steeped in the strong white/black racist past of our country and a way to demonize whites in an effort to uplift their congreants. And of course there is a way to focus on education, strong families, and economic sustainability without the racism, but that is not their way lol.
But the fact does remain that they are one of the largest and longest lasting black nationalist organizations and their methods actually do improve for the most part the lives of their followers and the children of their followers.
And this thread is about NOI and Farrakhan and not white nationalist. Show me a white nationalist organization that is similar to the NOI and we can maybe do a compare and contrast, but as far as I know, there isn't one that is similar. NOI does not have a history of violence or confrontation with whites. They stick to themselves and prefer to have no contact with whites. They are true segregationist IMO and think that any sort of involvement in white American society is detrimental to their followers. They also feel that black people can be successful on a whole both educationally and economically without having to rely upon any white organizations or associations.
In many ways I agree with them in this part. If integration had not occurred like it did where black people felt the need to "be accepted" by whites and to "assimilate" in white culture, I honestly do feel that as an ethnic group in this country we would have been better off. I do think that those white and blacks who came together to challenge the racist status quo of the past are very inspirational and that that challenge was needed and is of value, but on the whole, whites back then did not like black people. They were afraid of black people and felt superior to black people - hence why those racist laws were on the books. Today, we are only 1-2 generations further and those attitudes regarding the fear of blacks and the idea that blacks make "excuses" and are "victims" is still prevalent in our society as is evidenced by your own post. The NOI basically says "f" white society and they do what they want to do within the confines of the law, they are not violent, they don't go after whites who have more than they do in some sort of envious rant like what was done to successful black businesses and towns in the past. They are about uplifting blacks people through self determination. And even though, as stated, I don't agree with their racist views of white people or that whites were cooked in some pot (that is the funniest story I have ever heard), they actually do have lower rates of criminality, higher rates of education, business ownership and home ownership, and their members are more likely to have intact families.
I know they are classified as a hate group, but honestly, I don't feel they deserve that designation because they are not a violent organization and they don't actively seek to destroy whites. To me, they are more of a cult.
And FWIW, there are other black Islamic organizations that are not racist that have similar outcomes in regards to the positives of the NOI. Many of those organizations are by-products of NOI though so have similar views on socio-economics, just sans the racism.
And to the poster who stated NOI are not homophobic, you are correct in regards to the definition of homophobic being afraid of homosexuals. They are not homophobic, but they do despise homosexuality. But FWIW, Elijah Mohammed was a fan of James Baldwin - a black gay man. (LOVE Baldwin BTW, he is one of my favorite non-fiction writers, I like his fiction too but his essays on American society, especially as they relate to race are very powerful and moving). Baldwin was not overly vocal in regards to his homosexuality but he was openly gay for his adult life. I remember reading that Elijah Mohammed thought he would have made an excellent Muslim.
"Nationalism"...when a group is already on top and controlling most of the wealth and resources is something totally different from "Nationalism" for a group that is at the bottom in terms of wealth and socioeconomic. Nationalism, for the "oppressing group", is something totally different from Nationalism from an oppressed group. If the oppressor has a doctrine that another group is "nothing" the out group will either accept it or promote an agenda that they are "Something". When the oppressor pushes.....it creates a "push back".
One of sound mind and character cannot compare the unprovoked actions of an aggressor with that of the victim. In other words, if you are walking down the street and someone comes and attacks you with violence, your response to protect yourself by pushing back with violence does not make you "Just like your attacker". You are defending yourself while the attacker is the morally deprived entity. NOI is a defensive reaction to oppression.
Lets say there is a nation and that nation is attacked and occupied and its original residents subjugated and abused. Does resistance or attempts to counter act the impact of the invasion make the natives just as bad as the invaders?
There is no comparison. White nationalism seeks to ATTACK and preserve/conserve the gains of white oppression and maintain supremacy while black nationalism seeks to PROTECT AND RESTORE (the image autonomy and economics of black people).
TriMT7 seeks to make superficial comparisons, like "two people fighting", hence, no distinction with a difference, while purposely ignoring that one is fighting in SELF DEFENSE while the other is the attacker.
Hey man, whatever justifications you need to get you and other mealy mouthed academics to get past the cognitive dissonance that must ring like a bell in your head while you decry racism (or feel others should correct their own) whilst simultaneously employing it: Go for it.
I've heard these arguments before, and I reject them. Period. They are nothing new under the sun, and there is nothing you can say that will make me change my mind. I know them all. I have studied them all. They are textbook sociology/race theory 101 crap with justifications for continued racism that is incompatible with life in the modern United States and everything we should be striving for in this country. Not to mention, they are outdated in that they assume a traditional paradigm where it's "white vs. black."
It's not the 1950s-60s anymore. Perhaps you'd like to join us all in the 21st century.
And no, NOBODY but people like you who have bought into that same line of thinking will ever accept that kind of thinking. And repeating that it is over and over is tautology that you can engage in with someone else of like mind. It's EXACTLY my frustration with the "racism from minorities is only ever reactionary while racism from majorities is something different." No, it's not. In the case of the NOI, it is actually CLASSIC racism that puts blacks above everyone else.
Those things are their primary focus - self determination, strong families, and education.
The racist portions of their ideologies are steeped in the strong white/black racist past of our country and a way to demonize whites in an effort to uplift their congreants. And of course there is a way to focus on education, strong families, and economic sustainability without the racism, but that is not their way lol.
But the fact does remain that they are one of the largest and longest lasting black nationalist organizations and their methods actually do improve for the most part the lives of their followers and the children of their followers.
And this thread is about NOI and Farrakhan and not white nationalist. Show me a white nationalist organization that is similar to the NOI and we can maybe do a compare and contrast, but as far as I know, there isn't one that is similar. NOI does not have a history of violence or confrontation with whites. They stick to themselves and prefer to have no contact with whites. They are true segregationist IMO and think that any sort of involvement in white American society is detrimental to their followers. They also feel that black people can be successful on a whole both educationally and economically without having to rely upon any white organizations or associations.
In many ways I agree with them in this part. If integration had not occurred like it did where black people felt the need to "be accepted" by whites and to "assimilate" in white culture, I honestly do feel that as an ethnic group in this country we would have been better off. I do think that those white and blacks who came together to challenge the racist status quo of the past are very inspirational and that that challenge was needed and is of value, but on the whole, whites back then did not like black people. They were afraid of black people and felt superior to black people - hence why those racist laws were on the books. Today, we are only 1-2 generations further and those attitudes regarding the fear of blacks and the idea that blacks make "excuses" and are "victims" is still prevalent in our society as is evidenced by your own post. The NOI basically says "f" white society and they do what they want to do within the confines of the law, they are not violent, they don't go after whites who have more than they do in some sort of envious rant like what was done to successful black businesses and towns in the past. They are about uplifting blacks people through self determination. And even though, as stated, I don't agree with their racist views of white people or that whites were cooked in some pot (that is the funniest story I have ever heard), they actually do have lower rates of criminality, higher rates of education, business ownership and home ownership, and their members are more likely to have intact families.
I know they are classified as a hate group, but honestly, I don't feel they deserve that designation because they are not a violent organization and they don't actively seek to destroy whites. To me, they are more of a cult.
The black civil rights movement is the exact opposite of these segregationist goals of the NOI.
If you believe things would have been better under the status quo of segregation and exclusion in the South, then blacks should have left all that alone, don't you think? Self-determination was already happening in the segregated neighborhoods of the black south.
After all, it wasn't white people who initiated it. And now you want to go BACK to it? The most ardent symbols of white racism in the past were white folks fighting against desegregation. And yet today you have a soft spot for those in black ranks who would seek to go back to that time.
Again: Different side of the same coin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
And FWIW, there are other black Islamic organizations that are not racist that have similar outcomes in regards to the positives of the NOI. Many of those organizations are by-products of NOI though so have similar views on socio-economics, just sans the racism.
Well good for them. This isn't about Muslim organizations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
And to the poster who stated NOI are not homophobic, you are correct in regards to the definition of homophobic being afraid of homosexuals. They are not homophobic, but they do despise homosexuality. But FWIW, Elijah Mohammed was a fan of James Baldwin - a black gay man. (LOVE Baldwin BTW, he is one of my favorite non-fiction writers, I like his fiction too but his essays on American society, especially as they relate to race are very powerful and moving). Baldwin was not overly vocal in regards to his homosexuality but he was openly gay for his adult life. I remember reading that Elijah Mohammed thought he would have made an excellent Muslim.
"Despise" of homosexuality is ROOTED in FEAR of homosexuality. It challenges male masculinity and is prevalent amongst those with sexual and other types of insecurities.
Insistence on using Greek etymology of the word "homophobia" is just one more attempt to hedge, qualify and make excuses for inexcusable behavior.
Those things are their primary focus - self determination, strong families, and education.
The racist portions of their ideologies are steeped in the strong white/black racist past of our country and a way to demonize whites in an effort to uplift their congreants. And of course there is a way to focus on education, strong families, and economic sustainability without the racism, but that is not their way lol.
But the fact does remain that they are one of the largest and longest lasting black nationalist organizations and their methods actually do improve for the most part the lives of their followers and the children of their followers.
And this thread is about NOI and Farrakhan and not white nationalist. Show me a white nationalist organization that is similar to the NOI and we can maybe do a compare and contrast, but as far as I know, there isn't one that is similar. NOI does not have a history of violence or confrontation with whites. They stick to themselves and prefer to have no contact with whites. They are true segregationist IMO and think that any sort of involvement in white American society is detrimental to their followers. They also feel that black people can be successful on a whole both educationally and economically without having to rely upon any white organizations or associations.
In many ways I agree with them in this part. If integration had not occurred like it did where black people felt the need to "be accepted" by whites and to "assimilate" in white culture, I honestly do feel that as an ethnic group in this country we would have been better off. I do think that those white and blacks who came together to challenge the racist status quo of the past are very inspirational and that that challenge was needed and is of value, but on the whole, whites back then did not like black people. They were afraid of black people and felt superior to black people - hence why those racist laws were on the books. Today, we are only 1-2 generations further and those attitudes regarding the fear of blacks and the idea that blacks make "excuses" and are "victims" is still prevalent in our society as is evidenced by your own post. The NOI basically says "f" white society and they do what they want to do within the confines of the law, they are not violent, they don't go after whites who have more than they do in some sort of envious rant like what was done to successful black businesses and towns in the past. They are about uplifting blacks people through self determination. And even though, as stated, I don't agree with their racist views of white people or that whites were cooked in some pot (that is the funniest story I have ever heard), they actually do have lower rates of criminality, higher rates of education, business ownership and home ownership, and their members are more likely to have intact families.
I know they are classified as a hate group, but honestly, I don't feel they deserve that designation because they are not a violent organization and they don't actively seek to destroy whites. To me, they are more of a cult.
And FWIW, there are other black Islamic organizations that are not racist that have similar outcomes in regards to the positives of the NOI. Many of those organizations are by-products of NOI though so have similar views on socio-economics, just sans the racism.
And to the poster who stated NOI are not homophobic, you are correct in regards to the definition of homophobic being afraid of homosexuals. They are not homophobic, but they do despise homosexuality. But FWIW, Elijah Mohammed was a fan of James Baldwin - a black gay man. (LOVE Baldwin BTW, he is one of my favorite non-fiction writers, I like his fiction too but his essays on American society, especially as they relate to race are very powerful and moving). Baldwin was not overly vocal in regards to his homosexuality but he was openly gay for his adult life. I remember reading that Elijah Mohammed thought he would have made an excellent Muslim.
I tried to rep you but apparently I need to "spread around my reps more"...lol
I am sure that you know, as well as I do, that the real issue with the NOI is there unabashed speaking of the TRUTH in regards to the treatment of black people at the hands of whites. Whites just don't want people talking about those things......and if you do they find ways to discredit you.
Hey man, whatever justifications you need to get you and other mealy mouthed academics to get past the cognitive dissonance that must ring like a bell in your head while you decry racism (or feel others should correct their own) whilst simultaneously employing it: Go for it.
I've heard these arguments before, and I reject them. Period. They are nothing new under the sun, and there is nothing you can say that will make me change my mind. I know them all. I have studied them all. They are textbook sociology/race theory 101 crap with justifications for continued racism that is incompatible with life in the modern United States and everything we should be striving for in this country. Not to mention, they are outdated in that they assume a traditional paradigm where it's "white vs. black."
It's not the 1950s-60s anymore. Perhaps you'd like to join us all in the 21st century.
And no, NOBODY but people like you who have bought into that same line of thinking will ever accept that kind of thinking. And repeating that it is over and over is tautology that you can engage in with someone else of like mind. It's EXACTLY my frustration with the "racism from minorities is only ever reactionary while racism from majorities is something different." No, it's not. In the case of the NOI, it is actually CLASSIC racism that puts blacks above everyone else.
It’s more than theory and opinion that every action creates a reaction. People like you are discredited when you try to argue that such is not true when it comes to the racist actions of whites for centuries. All those actions, to the ignorant mind, are not the catalyst or cause of any reactions…..unless the reaction is positive, in which they want to take credit for it.
For the record, I never try to change anyone’s opinions. That is never my goal. My goal is simply to present a cause and affect argument, predicated on the reasoning that every action creates a reaction and hence every condition is evolved from a temporal continuum of actions begetting reactions. My mind is never CLOSED or HARDENED like you profess yours to be. I always want to be open to change and have an opinion that is pliable to a good argument.
That said, regardless of how much you and other denigrate the NOI, they remain in high esteem with me. That does not mean that I am a follower or adherer of their “Package deal”. Hey…it’s kind of like cable though. You cannot itemize the channel you want in a basic subscription. You might just want ESPN……but you have to take the whole basic package to get it. NOI does some really positive stuff...then they have other stuff that they do that I am not a fan of......but you cannot find an organization that does the positives like they do, in my opinion. There is no one that can touch Farrakhan as a motivation speaker for black men.....PERIOD!! There is no organization that turns the lives around of ex cons like NOI. They reach into places and populations that are the HARDEST....and make a difference.
The million man march would have been the 1000 man march without Farrakhan.
PS
None of these things are negated by the existence of whites, many of whom are not racist and good peoples. People seem to think that simply demonstrating that ALL whites are not racist someone makes the other stuff not true or discredited. Hell....slavery existed for centuries, notwithstanding "good white people" back then too.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-26-2014 at 11:18 AM..
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