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Old 03-11-2014, 08:40 AM
 
14,293 posts, read 9,658,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricS39 View Post
Socialism means we really value people and their needs

Instead of saying all dollar bills are created equal
We finally impose all men and women created equal in their capabilities and needs

What's bad here? It's good actually
Except that people are not "equal in their capabilities and needs," that much should be obvious.

Everyone needs basic protections of their rights and freedoms, but it's what they do with their lives that do not result in equal outcomes.

Some people need to have their hand held and guided along at every point in their lives, either because they are mentally incapable of thinking for and taking care of themselves, or because they are anti-social, self destructive, and or lazy.

Other people will provide everything for themselves and their families, and also provide for their neighbors too.

If you gave two people the same exact plots of land, one man will make his own tools, build a home, a barn with livestock, grow his own food, and make his own clothes. The other man will live a pathetic existence in a thatched lean-to, wear rags and eat roots and berries.

 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:41 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,768 posts, read 44,594,609 times
Reputation: 13621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
And therein lies its failure. The system rewards those who DO NOT DO THEIR PART. There's no point in being the dutiful ant if the system dictates that the grasshoppers get to fiddle during the summer and then are entitled to the ant's stored grain during the winter. Under collectivism, being the grasshopper is the smart play and being the ant makes you a sucker.

The other part of collectivism that always breaks is the disincentive to produce surplus. If surplus must simply be given away, why produce it? The way it works is, you are supposed to do your part, but if you don't, you are entitled to the surplus of someone else. That someone else must give away that surplus, given that you are entitled to it. They receive nothing from that exchange, so even the most socially benevolent among us would begin questioning doing the extra work required to produce a surplus that is just taken away with no compensation.

The historical reference can be found by reading about the "time of starving" in the original Jamestown settlement in the early 17th century. When the land was collectively owned and all work went the "common store," men did not work nearly as hard or efficiently. Once Thomas Dale established property rights and let people profit from their labors, the Invisible Hand did what it does, and the rest is history. The lesson there is that when a common store exists, and nobody is free to benefit from their labor, being essentially indentured to each other and the common store, you get sloth, indolence and apathy....which almost wiped out the original English settlers in North America. In other words, people stop doing their part because...well...it just ain't worth it.

We have transgenerational welfare dependency in this country. As in, there are people in America who are born, live their entire lives, and die at some ripe old age...never knowing anything but government dependency. Not special needs or physically/mentally handicapped people mind you, but able bodied, capable individuals who simply know no other way than a lifetime of government dependence. They NEVER DO THEIR PART. As the reward for not doing your part gets better, the number of people choosing to no longer do their part increases. Once just one more person takes than gives, the system is collapsing irreversibly.

This is where collective "benevolence" always leads. Everywhere, always, perfectly consistent since the dawn of mankind. You name the society it takes hold in, and history shows that minus upheaval and drastic change, all such societies collapse within a century, unless propped up from the outside by some other society (re: modern socialist nations borrowing economic fortune from neighbors, and relying on the US to do their national defense on the global scale). But look at your Venezuelas of the world, and when the economy is not diverse, and you have no neighbors to prop up your mistakes, and your collective overlords are morons, it takes far less time for the rot to take hold and crumble your society's pillars. The greatest forced collective empire in world history only lasted 74 years before its inevitable collapse.

tl;dr - it never works because human effort is like any other form of energy...it follows the path of least resistance. Tell me I can get by just fine without working, and I'll stop working.
Excellent post!

Sadly, true.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,660,138 times
Reputation: 24860
If you believe the "lifeline program" was being scammed just imagine how much scamming is being done by the "military contractors".
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,660,138 times
Reputation: 24860
The problem is not when two people are given the same plot of land but when a distant landowner fences off the plots of land the village had been collectively farming for subsidence while also farming individual plots for their own profit. When their lands were "enclosed" by the "legal" owner the previous free hold farmers we left trying to feed their families on "roots (potato's) and berries" in their thatched roof huts. Abject and massive starvation was relatively rare in most of Great Britain and Ireland before the remote landowners stole the grain of the peasants labor to feed the aristocracy and workers in the New Capitalism that infested England.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,321,515 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
If you believe the "lifeline program" was being scammed just imagine how much scamming is being done by the "military contractors".
And I think annual audits are NOT done on purpose.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,321,515 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
The problem is not when two people are given the same plot of land but when a distant landowner fences off the plots of land the village had been collectively farming for subsidence while also farming individual plots for their own profit. When their lands were "enclosed" by the "legal" owner the previous free hold farmers we left trying to feed their families on "roots (potato's) and berries" in their thatched roof huts. Abject and massive starvation was relatively rare in most of Great Britain and Ireland before the remote landowners stole the grain of the peasants labor to feed the aristocracy and workers in the New Capitalism that infested England.
One could also argue that the Progressives could steal the grain to feed those "less fortunate" because they sat on their land and did nothing.

The Progressives do the same crying "fair share" as they take your stuff.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:58 AM
 
17,390 posts, read 11,936,240 times
Reputation: 16137
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad3 View Post
The USSR's socialist system was controlled by power hungry dictators, and it was controlled by military officials.

If teachers, doctors, scientists, construction workers, and everyday people controlled the USSR's socialist system, perhaps it would have been different?
Socialism IS controlled by the government, which is dictators and the military.

if your system is controlled by teachers, every day people, etc. that's called FREE MARKET.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:59 AM
 
13,853 posts, read 5,559,638 times
Reputation: 8533
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
If you believe the "lifeline program" was being scammed just imagine how much scamming is being done by the "military contractors".
Partisan non sequitur, but it does sort of parallel the discussion. There are all manner of proprietary defense contracts that at this point are what I call "Lockheed welfare" programs, since they just redistribute wealth from citizens to companies, except instead of being purposed to "help the less fortunate" this redistribution is "for national defense." Just as traditional welfare does little to help the poor and a lot to pacify/fatten them, so too does proprietary contracting do little for national defense, but a lot to fatten various corporate coffers, which given the kickback feedback loops common between government contractors and politicians, is essentially a formalized "skimming off the top" system that enriches criminals using taxpayer money.

The proprietary contract is the collectivism. It says that so long as you provide some item/service X to the government, even if it is just white papers and ideas, we'll keep paying you from the common store. We will convince the community that this keeps them safe from global boogeymen, which should keep the torches and pitchforks off your front porch and ours. So take the day off, enjoy the free money from the suckers we call taxpayers, and oh yeah, can you dump me out a white paper on a new jet/tank/ship that I can send to committee so we can all look like that money is being used for something? Let's meet in Hawaii for a two week golf trip to confirm the details, eh?

Notice how nothing useful gets done whenever rewards are separated from input.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 09:02 AM
 
13,853 posts, read 5,559,638 times
Reputation: 8533
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Socialism IS controlled by the government, which is dictators and the military.

if your system is controlled by teachers, every day people, etc. that's called FREE MARKET.
If the "system" is controlled by anyone, it fails. If the individual controls themselves, their property and the fruits of their labor, the system flourishes.

Private property rights are the lynchpin of civilization, and socialism/collectivism restricts/repeals property rights.

Don't take my word for it, just read a history book.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,321,515 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
If the "system" is controlled by anyone, it fails. If the individual controls themselves, their property and the fruits of their labor, the system flourishes.

Private property rights are the lynchpin of civilization, and socialism/collectivism restricts/repeals property rights.

Don't take my word for it, just read a history book.
Actually you don't even have to dive too far into history.

Venezuela is a prime example of what happens when government takes over to make things fair and equal.

The people are starving, business has fled the country, inflation is near 60% and the people are finally revolting in the streets.
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