Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Is there a government-issue cliche in existence that you won't parrot?
Sounds like they had more on the ball than our leaders of the same period.
No U.S. foreign wars were ever necessary to maintain American independence. Unless you mean "necessary" for some other country's end, in which case you can drop the more-patriotic-than-thou posture.
If it has the effect of keeping us out of wars and getting our butts kicked when we're immoral enough to start them, then that's just fine with me.
Is there a pansy liberal college professor type of dogma that you will not parrot? Yes, Giap and Ho had FAR more on the ball than our "leaders" of that period. No doubt about it. Our leaders of that era made the same mistakes that are still being made. Top among them is the mistaken impression that the enemy THINKS like we do and hamstringing our fighting forces with absolutly ludicrous "rules of engagement". So WW1 and 2 were not necessary to retain our independence? I'm glad that you were not the one to make that call. Would you have then just bowed to the ambitions of the Axis powers and let them over run Europe? As if they would have just left us in peace?. That is mind boggling. "More patriotic than thou" posture? Immoral wars? lol War is an immoral business and one best left to soldiers. Not politicians and wailing "protesters" wearing peace signs and badly in need of a bath. The folks out there who are proud of a legacy of "protest" and now teach their poison at our universities make me ill. I come from a military legacy,and the way these people look down upon our fighting forces is contemptable. I saw, firsthand, how our troops returning from Viet Nam were treated by these vermin. I can find no forgiveness in me for that. Spare me the hippy rants about "patriotism". When we have had our "butts kicked" as you say it is because of the hand wringing crowds of "doves" exerting themselves upon our policies of war. Oh, I will hold my posture in whatever manner I choose. I care not a whit whether the rabbit breed in our midst likes that stance or not. I have good reason to hold the positions I do and the devil with the poiltical correctness of it.
For the record, this is the retraction published by Greg Lewis of the Washington Dispatch on March 2, 2004, apologizing for having fallen into this very same Giap Trap. Maybe you and Rush should do a little more homework...
"A few weeks ago in a column about Kerry, I referred to what has turned out to be an 'urban legend.' Specifically, based on a 'news' item that appeared on NewsMax.com, I repeated a reference to a volume of memoirs supposedly published by North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap in 1985 as the source of an assertion by Colonel Oliver North. After a reader requested a reference to Giap's 1985 "Memoirs," I did research that convinced me no such volume exists. For that matter, I haven't been able to verify through Fox News that Colonel North actually made the comments he is said to have made and which I repeated. My apologies to Colonel North and to Washington Dispatch readers for including inadequately verified material in my piece on Kerry."
General Giap did publish two books about the war, one in 1975, the other in 1976. In neither one does any quote even vaguely resembling the urban legend quote appear.
It does sound more like Rush Limbaugh the General Giap. I can't imagine those guys ever saying they were "on the ropes" or about to lose a war after continuing to resist first the Japanese, then the French, then the USA against "impossible" odds. It just wasn't in their mindset. To "win" you'd have had to kill every last one of them.
I hada copy of Giap's "Peoples War Peoples Army" at one time and my ex wife cleaned out my book case and sent it (and a few others) to the Thrift store where they were quickly gone. perhaps the county library can find it for me and I can post some direct quotes from it. This book was published a long time before 75/76. I believe it was 62 but I'm not certain. I WILL find out however. Anyone who could take a man like Giap for granted or underestimate him was a fool (can you say Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon) It is a great read if one is a student of different thinking. Particularly Asian thought. Ho Chi Mins book (which I also had but I cannot recall the title) was along the same lines. He outlined the US defeat in Viet Nam before we even sent the first advisors. MAN, I wish I still had those books! They belonged to my Dad (who spent four years in Viet Nam) and I read them whn I was in junior high and used them to do a report on Viet Nam for high school civics class. Maybe I can find other copies
I hada copy of Giap's "Peoples War Peoples Army" at one time and my ex wife cleaned out my book case and sent it (and a few others) to the Thrift store where they were quickly gone. perhaps the county library can find it for me and I can post some direct quotes from it. This book was published a long time before 75/76. I believe it was 62 but I'm not certain. I WILL find out however. Anyone who could take a man like Giap for granted or underestimate him was a fool (can you say Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon) It is a great read if one is a student of different thinking. Particularly Asian thought. Ho Chi Mins book (which I also had but I cannot recall the title) was along the same lines. He outlined the US defeat in Viet Nam before we even sent the first advisors. MAN, I wish I still had those books! They belonged to my Dad (who spent four years in Viet Nam) and I read them whn I was in junior high and used them to do a report on Viet Nam for high school civics class. Maybe I can find other copies
Following Tet the press realized it had been lied to from the beginning, and stopped just reporting the Military Press releases. They started doing their own reporting, including a lot of things the military wanted to hide (the scope of our involvement, the use of torture, the corrupt nature of our "allies", Ho Chi Minh's historic role in Viet Nam, and the size of the enemy forces). The Military and later the Nixon White House started scapegoating the press as the reason for the failure of the pentagon to win the war. General Giap was a brilliant leader, like Ho, and knew exactly what our weaknesses were. Nothing would have suited his purposes better than encouraging the military in their scapegoating, further dividing and weakening an already divided Nation.
For the record, this is the retraction published by Greg Lewis of the Washington Dispatch on March 2, 2004, apologizing for having fallen into this very same Giap Trap. Maybe you and Rush should do a little more homework..."A few weeks ago in a column about Kerry, I referred to what has turned out to be an 'urban legend.' Specifically, based on a 'news' item that appeared on NewsMax.com, I repeated a reference to a volume of memoirs supposedly published by North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap in 1985 as the source of an assertion by Colonel Oliver North. After a reader requested a reference to Giap's 1985 "Memoirs," I did research that convinced me no such volume exists. For that matter, I haven't been able to verify through Fox News that Colonel North actually made the comments he is said to have made and which I repeated. My apologies to Colonel North and to Washington Dispatch readers for including inadequately verified material in my piece on Kerry."
General Giap did publish two books about the war, one in 1975, the other in 1976. In neither one does any quote even vaguely resembling the urban legend quote appear.
saganista I cant believe you've been helping folks on this forum see the light, and hardly ever losing your patience, since 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatchance2005
It does sound more like Rush Limbaugh the General Giap. I can't imagine those guys ever saying they were "on the ropes" or about to lose a war after continuing to resist first the Japanese, then the French, then the USA against "impossible" odds. It just wasn't in their mindset. To "win" you'd have had to kill every last one of them.
Of course.
So Newsmax, the paper of record for so many RWs, was "reporting" this way in 2007...wow.
the attribution should be to col. bui tin, rather than giap:
Quote:
Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?
A: It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.
Q: Did the Politburo pay attention to these visits?
A: Keenly.
Q: Why?
A: Those people represented the conscience of America. The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win.
the attribution should be to col. bui tin, rather than giap:
Quote:
He was not a field commander, but rather an editor for Quan Doi Nhan Dan, the North Vietnamese military newspaper. He had been filing dispatches from the front.
While Tin's version of history is the one accepted by many Western historians, it is disputed by the Vietnamese government, which now contends that the surrender was in fact accepted by a North Vietnamese infantry officer and a tank commander.
Quote:
Disillusioned, the former darling of the Communist Party sought asylum in France in September 1990, leaving behind his wife and daughter. He has since met with "Big" Minh, his former enemy, now living in France
Clearly, the North Viet Namese don't like him, but General Giap does, and the Swift Boaters, and so does John McCain. Fox News likes them all. All advise us to vote Republican and follow their guidance about Al Quaida. Clearly the American POW/MIA Groups don't like any of them.
Quote:
While sitting as a member of the Senate Select Committee Hearing on the POW/MIA Issue, in 1991 -1993, it is believed that Senator McCain misused his position of authority by:
Quote:
1 . running ‘roughshod’ (i.e.: interrupting, disrupting, and belittling) over witnesses who were recognized as beingextremely knowledgeable of the POW Issue, but who had a different prospective.
2. using the same approach toward POW/MIA Family Members who testified, McCain brought one of the female witnesses to tears with his deriding and sarcastic remarks.
3. quickly and voluntarily moving in front of the dias to hug and welcome Mr Bui Tin, a recognized torturer of U.S. POWS. Then, Bui Tin was allowed to testify while Major Mark Smith, a retired Special Forces Officer and an Ex-POW was denied the same privilege
He says we could have won the war by cutting the Ho Chi Minh tral, but also says (in one of his books) that was never a possibility.
He does tell it like it was about Diem
Quote:
One would be hard-pressed to find any other Vietnamese with such life-long linkage to the Vietnamese Communists as Bui Tin.
Bui Tin adds-in yet another slap at Communist myth-makers-that with respect to their personal lives, “Mr. Ho Chi Minh is far behind and cannot match Mr. Ngo Ding Diem.”Does the name Diem ring a bell? He was the South Vietnamese president who Hanoi set out to overthrow in the early 1960s. Diem was assassinated on Nov. 1, 1963 , not by Communists but by disgruntled South Vietnamese military men who got the nod from Washington to remove him from power.
Eventually the corrupt nature of the Diem regime caused the United States to turn against him. President John F. Kennedy gave a thumbs-up for dissatisfied South Vietnamese generals to proceed with a coup d'etat. He didn't necessarily say kill him. Some accounts portray Kennedy as being stunned by news of Diem's execution. Three weeks later Kennedy himself was assassinated in Dallas.
Are there any members of the former Communist Bloc who don't advise us to go fight the Islamic Fundamentalists?
you really want to bring back Vietnam - Americas other stupid war?
They were all stupid, aside from the Revolution.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. That is mind boggling. "More patriotic than thou" posture?
) to the Thrift store where they were quickly gone. perhaps the county library can find it for me and I can post some direct quotes from it. This book was published a long time before 75/76. I believe it was 62 but I'm not certain. I WILL find out however.
This makes more sense.
