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Old 03-11-2014, 08:47 PM
 
3,557 posts, read 4,078,733 times
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Do conservatives believe in freedom of religion? I see plenty of hostility here towards Muslims and atheists.

 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:47 PM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,286 posts, read 51,752,562 times
Reputation: 23658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason3000 View Post
As long as Progressive can stay consistent I can accept their views, it's the constant hypocrisy and case by case approach that irks me.

Would Progressives defend a Neo-Nazi couple who insist a Jewish bakery make them a cake to commemorate Hitler's birthday?
Irrelevant, because racist beliefs are not a protected class... if they were refused for being male or bald, then I would defend their right to get that cake. Actually, I would still defend their right to be equally served anywhere, provided they weren't causing any trouble. I've pleasantly served my share of neo-Nazis and skinheads/racists in my line of work, and I am Jewish.

Quote:
When Muslims reject gays in their place of worship will Progressives argue that Mosques should have their tax exempt status revoked?
A place of worship does not = a public-serving business. As I said above, religious INSTITUTIONS are still (and should be) free to discriminate at will. That has always been the case, and I don't see this changing anytime soon. If my old rabbi here in the Bay Area was free to discriminate against interfaith weddings, up until his death about 7-8 years ago, what makes you think those rules will suddenly change? So yes, I defend any mosque's right to do as they please... they aren't breaking the law in doing so, whereas a public business would be. Different strokes.

Quote:
When Latinos vote against abortion will they take to the internet to call them names & belittle their religious beliefs?
Will they be "taken to the Internet?" Probably, just as EVERY position is belittled online by those who disagree. I mean, just look at all the posts belittling liberals on this thread - is that okay with you? It's fine with me, as much as I find it annoying, and they aren't breaking any laws by doing so. City-Data is a private website, though, so the moderators could delete those posts if they felt it was a TOS violation.

So while I wouldn't personally belittle anyone for voting with their religious beliefs, that certainly doesn't fall under what we are discussing here. Do you understand that freedom of speech and religion does NOT protect you from backlash? It only protects against government action, and the rest of us are free to respond as we see fit. When they take these beliefs to a public-serving business, however, that is when your example would be relevant to this discussion. So to summarize, you have done nothing to prove your point about inconsistencies, since you're confusing a whole bunch of issues here!

A better example would have been "should a Catholic hospital be free to refuse abortion services?" That is a more complicated and interesting question, as it mixes both religion and public services.

Last edited by gizmo980; 03-11-2014 at 08:55 PM..
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:48 PM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,003,271 times
Reputation: 12503
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs View Post
Freedom of religion means you may practice any religion you'd like as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. Using religion as a justification to infringe on the rights of gays is not what is included in the First Amendment, nor is the First Amendment applicable in that defense.
Bingo.

Since people who use religion to justify their hate LOVE to forget what the First Amendment actually says, here we go:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


Nowhere does it give you the right to run rough-shod over other people based on one's religion. It does not give you the right to: not hire gays/blacks/Muslims, etc. It does not give you the right to deny people medical care on "religious" grounds. It does not give anyone the right to degrade their fellow man and then use "my god told me to do it!' as an excuse.

Freedom of religious exercise as stated is not a blanket excuse to let you do whatever you want provided you can come up with some twisted interpretation of religious quotes taken out of context to justify it.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:54 PM
 
29,409 posts, read 21,920,471 times
Reputation: 5455
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
"You folks" "You libs" - c'mon, you can do better than that. And do you realize how crazy YOU sound, when you can't even respond to a single post without this nonsense? Try addressing us PERSONALLY for once, instead of falling back on your usual liberal-bashing... especially since you know I'm a political independent who practices religion!

And the analogy to Jim Crow laws literally couldn't be any more relevant, since you said exactly what anti-integration folks said back then. "Why can't they just go where they're wanted? Why should I, as a business owner, be forced to serve people I don't like?" etc etc. How you can't see these connections is mind-boggling, so I have to assume you are being intentionally blind here. Oh yeah, and I wasn't talking about "slave days" - I was talking about when Jim Crow laws were overturned, about 100 years after slavery ended. LOL

I repeat: We have laws in this country, mostly stemming from the days of racial segregation, which bar a public-serving business or institution from discrimination based on demographics (specifics may differ from state to state). If you don't like the laws, write the government entities to voice your concerns. But in the meantime, you really shouldn't be whining about these laws being enforced. What if I decided to drive 100mph on the freeway, then whined when I got a ticket because "these laws are lame?" I bet you'd tell me to take some personal responsibility, and follow the laws if I don't want a ticket (even if you agreed the laws were lame). Right?
Mason3000 spelled it out better than I can in just a few words a couple posts back. Read it.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:57 PM
 
28,574 posts, read 18,586,360 times
Reputation: 30812
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer View Post
He is open to the pubic, that makes him not a private business. Do you not understand how business works? If he baked cakes from his home and only on orders to say friends and family, then he is a private business. Any business open to the public is not a private business.
He can go a bit further than that. He can strictly advertise and practice a business that caters only to signed members of his own religion, just like a private school or a private club--or like a church itself. That's why a church that provides space for weddings only to its own members would not be required to provide space for a non-member. The law protects in both directions.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:58 PM
 
29,409 posts, read 21,920,471 times
Reputation: 5455
You folks think you decide who is a "protected" class. Then you send the media mongers out and rant and rave and blame everybody. That is the liberal game. You have no policy, not agenda, nothing but divide and destroy. It is working I will admit. LIberals have torn this country apart.........the goal.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:58 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,634 posts, read 14,868,645 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Every business has a right to deny service to who they don't want in their business. You don't like it then go next door and eat a cake. Why is this so hard for liberals to understand. Go into a restruant and see a sign that says we have the right to deny service bla bla bla. Are you folks so far gone you think you can make everybody do anything you want? It appears so.
Oh, is that so?

If I own a restaurant can I deny service to a black person? A Dominican? A Hindu? A senior citizen? A blind person? An Arab?

Sheesh.

You are so ignorant of business law.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:59 PM
 
28,574 posts, read 18,586,360 times
Reputation: 30812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason3000 View Post
I find it strange how so many of the ever growing ranks of Latino Catholics are ardently anti-gay, anti-abortion, as are the ever growing ranks of Muslims (In my city they spearheaded the fight against gay marriage) in our country and yet the Progressives never seem to have any issue with them, just white Christians.
All someone has to do bring a lawsuit against them. Have you heard of a lawsuit by gays against a Muslim business that has not seen its day in court?
 
Old 03-11-2014, 08:59 PM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,286 posts, read 51,752,562 times
Reputation: 23658
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Mason3000 spelled it out better than I can in just a few words a couple posts back. Read it.
Read it, and responded just a minute ago.

He did NOT spell it out better than you, or anyone, since he's confusing the issues here... religious institutions have different rules than public-serving businesses, and being "belittled" on the internet is not protected under any laws (unless they include physical threats). Please, for the love of whoever, learn the laws before trying to make these points! And that goes for everyone here who's confused, not just you.
 
Old 03-11-2014, 09:00 PM
 
28,574 posts, read 18,586,360 times
Reputation: 30812
Quote:
Originally Posted by aviastar View Post
You assume most people live in cities like KC, where you have options. Some people live in small towns where there might only be one option for their wedding...
I haven't seen a small town in the US yet that did not have more than one church and some kind of social center, and that includes farm towns of less than 500 people.
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