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What country with a standing military simply sings the National Anthem and then packs up and leaves in the face of an enemy?
Is there no Ukrainian military? So they out numbered, out equipped and all that? They just pack up and leave? They expect others to flow their blood to save them when they won't lift a single finger (even the middle one) in their own defense?
For crying out loud, the Iraqi's fought and they were faced with far superior forces.
Somehow all this talk about Ukrainian sovereignty rings a bit hollow when for whatever reason, they won't use their own military to protect what they want others to protect for them.
Would they stand no chance against the Russians? Of course not but is that now the measure of what you are willing to fight for, based upon military losses? If you are unwilling to fight for your own country, why should anyone bother to think about it?
Would it start a larger conflict? Since when has that stopped anyone from fighting for their own country?
Ukraine's gov't is not going for war and has told their military personnel not to fire. Most of the attackers or advancers are "pro-Russian", being a make shift group of Crimeans that want Ukrainians out of Crimea. Putin is risky, but not so risky to advance further into Ukraine. He won't, if he did it would escalate to the brink of WWIII, and with Russia's nuclear capabilities it would be game over for the world.
^^^^^^ this is some "knowledge" indeed.
1. virtually no one in the West differentiates between Rus and Russia. Ancient country of Rus" (Русь) was named so as its indigenous peoples were knoiwn for their light colored, blond, or rusyi (русый) hair color. That country was loose conglomerate of many similar languages (Slavic) tribes, scattered all the way from steps of what was Eastern Ukraine through nothern Russia, Poland, Bulgaria, all the way into Eastern Europe. Its largest city was Kiev, and at some point in time it was called Kievan Rus" KIevskaya Rus" (Киевская Русь). Apotheoses of its might was during rulership of Yaroslav the Wise and Volodymyr the Great, also known as baptizer of the Rus". Later, it decayed and became a vassal domain to Galytch, or Galycian-Volyn" dukeship. With it's center in Galytch and largest city of L"viv, where I hail from. Galytch-Volyn dukeship spanned entire Poland, all pre- Baltic republics, western Ukraine, and was the largest political and military power in that time Europe, making kings of France to seek marriages with Duke's daughters, as honor and sought liaison.
2. Russia, on the other hand, was conglomerate of the same blood tribes, arranged along the river Ros" (РосЬ), and was basically on outskirts of Kievan Rus". It's largest city was fiercely independent Novgorod, city of traders. Rosins, later Russians, due to their much more northern location, general poverty, and insignificance, manage to stay out of primary interest for Mongols, who occupied Kievan Rus" in 12th century. This allowed them to stay safe, tiny hole called Moscow to grow bigger and, eventually become capitol to the Russian dukes. By lie and politics, they made it through years of Golden Orda, building up power and consolidating, while Orda was decaying and weakening. In 15th century Russian unified militaries finally battled Mongols and won, once and forever.
3. The only reason Mongols took over Kievan Rus" was never ending internal quarrels between multiple sons of Kiev Great Duke, who granted them smaller dukeships inheritances. Every one of them wanted to become a Great Duke, none wanted to unite. United, 16 dukeships could have eaten Mongol army for breakfast, separated, they were picked up one by one.
4. The only military power that had true fighting spirit in the history of the Ukraine, thereafter, were Ukrainian Cossacks. Settled in Zaporizhska Sich, or stronghold, they created a truly independent republic of warrior moinks, so to speak, as not a single woman ever set her foot there, and they had to accept oath of celibacy. For centuries, they were one and only force that could truly counter rensakings of Mongols and later Tatars and Ottoman Turks. They became so powerful, that in 16th century basically brought Polish Empire to its knees. Running out of man power and seeking military ally, then Cossacks chief warlord, or Hetman, Bogdan Khmelnytskiy, stroke devastating in its effects treaty with Russia. As the result, entire Eastern Ukraine became russified for centuries, while western Ukraine became vassal to Poland. During Katherine the Great rule, Cossacks were broken down and some of them flee to Turkey, some to Kuban and Don rivers, then wild no man lands. They became what was later known as Kubanskie and Donskie Kazaki, later incorporated, under Russian spirit and ethnicity, into Russian and later, Soviet military.
To the point of what I am saying, no, there is no spirit left in that country with broken backbone. And who they will be fighting? Largest military power in the world? That will not even need to sneeze to conquer Ukraine? Knowing well enough, that no one else will dare to interrupt? As Europe learned its lesson not to mess with Russians long ago. Neither will Americans.
ukrkoz - Thank you very much for your post. It is a good summary of a far away place for most Americans with a fascinating and complex history.
We are infested with Armchair Warriors like to OP that urge everyone but themselves to go to war. I do not urge anyone to go to war except as a most extreme measure. We, and the Europeans, would be absolutely insane to start a war, or even impose sanctions, with Russia over their annexation of the Crimea. Obviously the Ukrainians and their army are not insane.
ukrkoz - Thank you very much for your post. It is a good summary of a far away place for most Americans with a fascinating and complex history.
We are infested with Armchair Warriors like to OP that urge everyone but themselves to go to war. I do not urge anyone to go to war except as a most extreme measure. We, and the Europeans, would be absolutely insane to start a war, or even impose sanctions, with Russia over their annexation of the Crimea. Obviously the Ukrainians and their army are not insane.
Well-said!!!
As I posted on another thread, one of our very-best friends was born in eastern Ukraine and emigrated to the US as a child. He has long-since been a loyal, naturalized American citizen. (By the way, his first language is Russian, not Ukrainian.)
He still has a lot of family, and a large number of friends, in eastern Ukraine with whom he frequently communicates via phone and Skype. They, like him, are pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia. They say, with considerable authority, that this whole Crimea thing is a 'done-deal', and they don't see why the West is making such a fuss.
First, Crimea has long been recognized by the Ukraine government as an autonomous region, complete with its own government.
Second, a somewhat extreme political faction has recently seized power in Ukraine by overthrowing/supplanting the elected leader.
Third, because of this, Crimea appealed to Russia for protection from said extreme political faction.
Fourth, the Crimean population overwhelmingly voted to become part of Russia.
***************************
So, in the words of that classic television commercial, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
Where it is written that the United States, NATO, and the European Community have the right to intervene in, and overturn, the will of an entire group of citizens just because they don't agree with it?????
C'mon, folks! Let's take a chill-pill, step back and relax, and see where things lead. Let's also BE ABSOLUTELY SURE to listen to/understand the whole story before we take the first step.
Shooting it out with a massively superior force with ZERO chance of winning is not what good leaders do.
Now a limited action to make it clear that the Russians are being actively militant about it might be worth it, but then again Georgia tried that...and no one cared.
Now a limited action to make it clear that the Russians are being actively militant about it might be worth it...
But, you see, they aren't. That's the fallacy of the entire US/EU/NATO propaganda. And "propaganda" is exactly what it is. Rather than posturing and preening and lighting the war-fires to marshal our forces, we should be LISTENING to what the general populace of the region is telling us. That we are not doing this, in my opinion, speaks volumes about our TRUE mind-set.
For anyone who wishes to know more, investigate the concept of 'projection' -- an ego-defense mechanism that involves taking our own unacceptable qualities or feelings and ascribing them to other people....
Regards,
-- Nighteyes
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